11 replies to this topic

[CanadaCraig]

Hi Everyone!! :)

I hope you're OK.

I am a Christian. That means that I believe not only in God [The one talked about in the Bible] but also in Jesus. I believe that Jesus was and is God. As a Christian I TRY to follow the teachings of Jesus and abide by those things commanded of me by God. Easy to do? Not for me it isn't. In fact - I struggle with my faith every single day. I don't struggle insofar as whether or not there is a God - but with things like whether or not some people will be tortured and tormented forever and ever [As many people believe] in a place often referred to as 'Hell'. The very idea that God - who is described in the Bible as 'LOVE' - could ever allow such a thing to happen has baffled and confused me for as long as I can remember. And has caused me to become - at times - very ANGRY with God. After many years of trying to figure out what REALLY happens to those who do not believe in God and Jesus - I have all but come to the conclusion that we have been mislead all these years by church leaders [Who they themselves were mislead] into believing a LIE. It's important to keep in mind that a LIE often becomes the 'truth' IF the LIE is said often enough. And that's exactly what I think has happened to the LIE regarding what happens to those who don't believe in God and Jesus.

If you have been struggling with the idea of why God would allow some people to be tortured and tormented forever and ever for NOT accepting His gift of forgiveness [Not accepting that Jesus died on the cross for our sins - in other words] then I strongly suggest you that you click on the link below.

http://www.helltruth.com/

Have a great day!!

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!! :)

[munchkinprince]

God does not force Hell on anyone. Throughout life, each person is offered a choice on one level or another. Those that choose to accept Christ's gift of life are given Life. If one doesn't accept the gift, they don't receive it. This leaves the outcome of torture, as the gift is simply existing in God's presence. Without that gift, existence is in chaos, abyss, nothingness, and utter seperation from God.

The Love that is God is not properly seen when examining Hell. His love is beyond clear, though, when we are presented with Christianity, our "Get-out-of-Hell-free card".

[CanadaCraig]

Hi munchkinprince!! :)

I hope you're OK

So... I take it that you DO believe in the 'never-ending' torment concept of Hell. Is that right?!

GBH - Craig!! :)

[munchkinprince]

Very much so.

[CanadaCraig]

munchkinprince;493126 said:

Very much so.

Hi munchinprince!! :)

Would you be kind enough to quote scriptures that support that belief?!

Thanks,
GBH - Craig!! :)

PS And did you read the article I linked you to?!

[munchkinprince]

the following are verses found on carm.org (christian apologetics & research ministry) that revolve around hell or concepts of hell. I would have written the verses, but I only found them last night and have had no time to research them. Feel free to read as you see fit.

Mark 9:43
Revelations 14:11
Luke 16:19-31
2 Peter 2:4
Matthew 22:13
Matthew 3:12
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29-30
Matthew 18:8-9
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
Jude 6-7
Jude 23
Revelations 21:8
Revelations 20:15

[CanadaCraig]

Hi munchkinprince!! :)

I hope you're OK.

I appreciate you taking the time to find all of those Bible verses that you feel support the view that 'Hell' is a place where non-believers are consciously tormented without end.

I don't believe that - as you know - and have chosen to support my belief with the following Bible verses. But you should know that I do NOT believe that the 'unsaved' will simply exist no more upon their physical death. They will be [I believe] judged by God and justly punished BEFORE being thrown in the 'Lake of Fire' and annihilated.


Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Malachi 4:1, 3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Psalms 68:2
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God

Psalms 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 37:38
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Matthew 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

['unquenchable' meaning 'can not be put out by man' and will continue to burn until the source of the fire is entirely gone]

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It should be noted that the meaning of the term 'everlasting' means without change. An unsaved soul will perish - exist no more - and will continue to exist no more FOREVER and EVER. It will be - for them - an 'everlasting' non-existence. In the same way that for those who believe it will be an everlasting life - a life that continues on FOREVER and EVER.

I strongly suggest that you take a look at the following website.

http://www.thetruthabouthell.org/

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!! :)

[munchkinprince]

I've always understood the word death to imply a more figurative meeting. For example, the death punishment God was talking about in Eden COULD have meant an end of physical life... or it could mean spiritual death. A seperation from God seems like a punishment fit for a description of Hell.

[CanadaCraig]

munchkinprince;493160 said:

I've always understood the word death to imply a more figurative meeting. For example, the death punishment God was talking about in Eden COULD have meant an end of physical life... or it could mean spiritual death. A seperation from God seems like a punishment fit for a description of Hell.

Hi munchkinprince!! :)

Keeping in mind that I am - as I believe you are - constantly 'working' my way towards having a better understanding of God and a better understanding of what is meant by what we are told in the Bible..... I suppose one could argue that any 'separation from God ' WOULD be death [as in 'to exist no more'] because God Himself is LIFE. Without God we ARE nothing. [Just a thought] But lets assume for a moment that 'Hell' IS where the 'unsaved' will go and IS where they shall be consciously aware of their separation from God. We are told in Revelation 20:14 that "....death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." So if 'Hell' is as you suggest [And it might very well be] it TOO shall die. 'Death' itself shall be consumed in the 'Lake of Fire' [I believe] because no one in Heaven shall ever experience 'death' again. And neither shall they ever be cast into Hell. [Which is why there will be no more need for 'Hell'] As for what God meant by 'death' in the Garden of Eden - I tend to believe that He was referring to the 'second death' - the final death.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!! :)

[munchkinprince]

I'm not really sure what I think of this, but I have found a website that thinks that when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it means that the souls of all nonbelievers will be reunited with their bodies, no matter what the death was, including those who have drowned and buried at sea.

Hades, I'm a little more knowledgable on. Many readers pass over the story in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. They both died and actually did not go to Heaven or Hell. They went to what may be considered a waiting room wholly unlike purgatory. Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man was in Hades and they were seperated by a great chasm. Saying that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire is not referring to the person of greek mythology(I'm sure that's not what you thought), but saying that all of those in the location of Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire and will be seperated from God thereafter.

[CanadaCraig]

Hi munchkinprince!! :)

I hope you're OK.

munchkinprince;493163 said:

I'm not really sure what I think of this, but I have found a website that thinks that when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it means that the souls of all nonbelievers will be reunited with their bodies, no matter what the death was, including those who have drowned and buried at sea.

I'm not quite sure what to think of that idea - either. On a 'gut' level' it just doesn't seem to make any sense and does nothing but make God look like a monster. More awful - in fact - than Satan himself. If you still have the URL to that website - I'd like see it.

Quote

Hades, I'm a little more knowledgable on. Many readers pass over the story in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. They both died and actually did not go to Heaven or Hell. They went to what may be considered a waiting room wholly unlike purgatory. Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom and the rich man was in Hades and they were seperated by a great chasm. Saying that Hades is thrown into the lake of fire is not referring to the person of greek mythology(I'm sure that's not what you thought), but saying that all of those in the location of Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire and will be seperated from God thereafter.

Jesus often talked in parables and I think it's possible that that is exactly what the story of Lazarus and the rich man is. But if it's not - it will still be possible for the rich man to suffer while in Hades [Hell] while waiting to be annihilated in the Lake of Fire.

Just so you know - I respect you. I appreciate how you're responding to thoughts and ideas that are [for the most part] contrary to your own. A lot of people can't 'talk religion' without their emotions getting in the way.

GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!! :)

[munchkinprince]

Actually, I thought it could be considered a parable as well, however, there is a reason I disagree. If you remember, every parable is kept as vague as possible, usually with the story seeming completely unrelated to the situation at hand. In the story of Lazarus, a name is mentioned and the context of the story matches the events in the story(an example of them not matching up would be the 3 servants entrusted with money while the master went away).


I seem to have lost the site, but I can get it back in a relatively short period of time. I do recommend greekbible.com, however, for the new testament. You type in a verse and you can see the original greek. You click on a word and all the possible definitions are given.