How Can People Wonder Why?

[junglemonkey]

I'm liking this debate.



I can't go out around here anymore for fear of being chased. And yes, I don't take a gun to anyones head but nothing is ever done about bullies. They can't stop them. Some people must just be at breaking point, and obviously none of us have been that bad. Maybe they had a mental problem no one identified because of the bullying?



I've been bullied very many times, yes. There was one time where it couldn't go un noticed and my parents found out because I would be chased and come home with cuts and bruises and things. They told the school. The school did nothing. They didn't even think about repremanding the people involved, in fact, they wanted to send me to 'agression classes' so in effect I would just bully them back. I had to move school because of them, and I can really see how someone would get so screwed up in their heads they would want to kill them.



Granted, I have never ever been in their position. But you have to remember a lot of mental problems go un noticed and none of us can relate to what they were feeling. I know it is wrong to shoot up in school butif the schools aren't trying to stamp out bullies then they just can't win and will be tortured for their entire school careers.

[archers_angel]

Originally posted by InfinityBPS@Jun 14 2003, 12:18 PM

You people that haven't been bullied everyday of your life, you have no room to talk, Until you can say that you put up with scince you started school, you have no righ to act like you know what your talking about.



*This was directed at anyone that agreed with DL Tweeds...

i really really disliked the way u phrased that. There are soooo many worse things in life than being bullied, and to be honest, i think you just have to get over it and move on. The only person that can be held accountable for your decisions is yourself. you cannot blame someone else for whatever you decide to do.

[junglemonkey]

Yes archers_angel, there may be worse things. To you. Being bullied day in day out would be unbearable. I've only had it serious for a couple of years. To go through torture everyday must be horrible. Think of the blows to their self esteem. They must have no self-worth.

[noxor]

Originally posted by zzzz@May 25 2003, 12:30 PM

I agree totally, the only thing thats stopping me from whipping out the tech-9 and blasting away are the gun laws in canada.

...and guantanamo bay, which is, of course, where you were taken soon after posting that

[punk13]

I totally agree with you 100% People only call it as they see it. They don't get all (if any) of the Facts. They just don't understand how cruel people can really be. Teens take crap like teasing seriously. We can't help it. Deep down all anyone wants it to be accepted. and its like if you are not accepted then you are no one. and if you are no one then there is no point in living. (one reason for suicide.) Parents and people like that say that they understand and they know what you are going throught but truely they don't. It was much different back then. If a person geos on a shooting spree then I think the people who get shot deserve it. They should have treated that person like a person and not like an inferior. The person who does it is not evil and sometimes its not their fault They were driven to that point by their peers. People are just plain cruel and that all there is to it.

[Deus_Sephiroth]

Vengence is mine said the lord. But i dont see anything wrong with stompin a few fools now and then

[Becoming Human]

"Yes, you have to have been bullied to fully understand."



First, I'd like to point out that I said that you must be bullied in order to fully understand. Not that being bullied necessarily means you HAVE to understand.



And now, I'd like to come to my main point. As many of you have stated, you have been bullied, and decided that killing people wouldn't be the best option.



But you were forced to assess and make a judgment based on what was happening to you. For instance, DLTweeds thought that moving from school to school would be the best option (good choice). You were forced to make a decision based on the fact that someone was harassing you.



But lets say you weren't such a rational person, or that changing schools simply wasn't an option. I can already see the rational in the Colombine students (simplified):



-Bullying is bad

-The bullies are getting away with it

-I have tried good solutions (Ignoring, confiding, resolving), and they don't work. Bad solutions (no pun intended), are solutions that work.

-What are my evil solutions?



My claim is that if you took away the bullies, forcing someone to deal with this would be gone, and therefore the murders would cease.



Am I saying that those Colombine students aren't evil? No, I'm saying that they were forced to make a decision, and they chose evil. It was the bullies that made them make a choice.



Ultimately, if it was the bullies that forced that decision to be made, then I assume that they were a factor in the school shootings.



Do I feel sorry for the innocent bystanders who were shot? Of course. Do I feel sorry for the Bullies? No. Its crazy world. If you make fun of someone, constantly tease them, and expect for them just to accept it, you're also ignoring the fact that shit like this happens. If you enter something like this and assume you won't get hurt, you're ignorance led to your own downfall.

[pmfman]

in 50 years from now do you really think it will matter if a teacher wasnt nice to you? somehow i doubt it, so why would you let it get to you like that. you have to calm down.

[Becoming Human]

Originally posted by pmfman@Jun 16 2003, 06:35 AM

in 50 years from now do you really think it will matter if a teacher wasnt nice to you? somehow i doubt it, so why would you let it get to you like that. you have to calm down.

Its more than just intense hate for someone else. Its a feeling of inferiority. Most people could accept the concept of being bullied, but, then again, most are bothered by the fact that they cant do anything about it (helpless).



Also, most people dont see themselves in the distant future, they see themselves in the near future. People who are being bullied dont think "Yes, only three more years of this," they think "god no, three more years."

[pmfman]

if people are low enough to find joy out of making others feel down, then there is no point in letting them even bother you.

(i know, i know)

[Jaegermeister]

Becoming Human, you are trying to make it sound like there is no choice, or that any choice they make is forced, or not free. Their choice and judgement may be impaired, but there's no such thing as a forced choice. You are always able to choose a different path. Not seeing the other path does not make you not responsible for taking the one you did.



tJ

[junglemonkey]

Originally posted by pmfman@Jun 16 2003, 06:35 AM

in 50 years from now do you really think it will matter if a teacher wasnt nice to you? somehow i doubt it, so why would you let it get to you like that. you have to calm down.

Think 50 years ahead?!?!



So if someone is getting beat up and teased day in day out all they have to do is think, oh great, in fifty years this won't matter to me any more! I don't think thats a great solution...



Ahh that post made me mad. These memories will live with kids forever. It will shape them, it will damage their confidence severely and this could greatly affect later life. It's not like they have to wait until they're beat up and the bruises heal then everything is fine. The mental torturing going on surpasses the damage any bruise or cut or beating can do.

[Becoming Human]

First of all, I'm not saying that "there is no choice."



Quite the opposite, I'm saying that they are FORCED to make a choice. The ultimate decision that they make is forced. Here, let me explain it in clearer terms:



I'm being bullied, what do I do about it (This is the situation that is forced upon them; one that forces them to make a choice)

-Move to a different High school

-Take the abuse

-Kill all my bullies in a murderous rampage



If we eliminated the "I'm being bullied" part, there would be no murder because the victim wouldn't have to chose from the (much shortened) list of possibilities.



And Dltweeds is absolutely correct in saying that there probably is a better choice. But, some people don't always make the most sensible choice. They will always react violently when they're being bullied (And by that token, I am agreeing and have agreed that the majority of the responsibility falls on their shoulders) . But, in a world where everyone doesn't always take the most responsible path, the obvious solution is to stop the damn bullying.



And onto my main point. Phencyclidine said that "you could eliminate any causal link and the effect could be that no murder occurs".



And that's correct. If the Columbine students didn't have guns, no one would have been shot. But having guns wasn't why the killers decided to kill every jock in the school.



So, it depends on what you consider casual. I certainly don't believe that being bullied was a "causal link," on the level with playing violent video games and watching horror movies. In fact, I'm going to go so far as to say that being bullied was the MAIN reason the Columbine students went on a rampage and killed the jocks (bullies). I don't see any better reason.



Now, using that kind of logic, you could say that a stock market crash could drive many people into insanity and murder sprees. Maybe we should get rid of the stock market.



But, in that case, I fully blame the killer. They CHOSE to enter the stock market, but no one CHOOSES to be bullied.



And I draw my conclusion that bullying is partially responsible for the murders because they forced the killer into a severe situation (unlike buying stock) in which they HAD to make a decision (yes, acceptance of bullying is still a decision). The decision was ultimately left up to them, but they were forced to make it.



Yes, the killers are mostly responsible for their actions. They chose to kill their comrades. But bullying was a condition (and main driving force for the murders) forced on them, and they saw that killing everyone as a good solution. So, because they had no choice whether or not they were bullied, I consider the bullies partially (but not as much as the actual killers) responsible for the crimes. I don't feel any remorse for bullies.



But, everyone's beliefs on the matter are already made. Nothing I can say can change that, and my beliefs are of course not necessarily right. So, I'm just happy that everyone's opinions could be heard.

[Becoming Human]

"No one choses the stock market to crash."



Sorry, I wasnt real clear about this. They accepted that there was a possibility that the stock market could crash when they bought the stock (unless completely ignorant). So, they knew there might be a chance that the market might crash, and chose to enter it anyway. There is no such choice when being bullied.



"I would find it acceptable to say that there were extreme conditions."



And the common ground is reached. Thanks for the interesting debate! (sorry for the confusing language).

[Jaegermeister]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to react to every point in your post because I am too lazy right now, but I will state something that was so obvious to me that I left it out, not thinking that others would notice it. I say it's the person who committed the action's fault because I think the influences and causation of an event are way to complex to narrow it down to one specific thing. So I don't blame causes, I blame the people who carry out the actions. I'll concede that these people being bullied was probably a big factor, but there are other underlying things, such as parents, mental health, self esteem, things like that which we cannot know about, and so blaming cause is frivolous to me because there's too much there that caused this.



But no, I still don't think the choice is forced. Impaired, yes. Forced, no.



TJ