Us Election

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Brad
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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 8 2004, 01:23 PM

imo kerry has made collosal mistakes. he has a history of putting down the government and military affiars.


Frankly, I expect the challenger of the incumbent president to criticize the government's actions, military or no. You take offense to that? You would rather he simply agreed with every aciton and policy of the Bush administration? You think that it's a mistake? Obviously, unquestioning loyalty is a trait you value highly.


he disrespected the soldiers in the war with iraq. me, having a cousin in the iraq


Oh, did he now? He went on the record insulting American troops? See, I've heard him say several times how much he respects and related to the fighting men and women of the United States. Could it be he wasn't criticizing the troops, but just the war itself?


me, having a cousin in the iraq, was not very fond of kerrys comments about the war, neither were his parents.


Ah, you just answered my question.


for this reason alone, in this time of war, that man should not be president. sence when is the president susposed to help the enemy? by raping them of thier moral and country pride, kerry would help the enemy.



So, let me get this straight... because Kerry does not support the way that the war is being handled (and let's be honest, things in Iraq are not going well) means that he is helping the enemy? To me, it seems as though he wants to find a better strategy to win. But maybe that's just me. No, wait, it isn't. He said as much during the debates.


ne ways, when u said kerry has made no mistakes, i just thought of that. so i typed it


When did I say Kerry has made no mistakes? I said he hasn't made any huge, major, collosal, absolute fuck-ups like Bush has. Kerry has cost thousands upon thousands upon thousands of innocents their lives.




not to offend you, but ive noticed by your posts that your a pretty pessimistic person. you look at the worst of everything... optimism rules.


We're talking about the reckless neo-conservative bigotted cowboy that was just RE-ELECTED. The only reason that Bush was saved from becoming a lame duck president was 9/11. He must be thanking the good Lord in heaven for that tragedy, because it let him get away with anything. And the country still supports him, no matter what.



Of course I'm pessimistic. I get that way when people take democracy for granted. When people get so lazy and apathetic that they swallow anything the media feeds them.



As I've said before, my patience with the majority of Americans has run out.
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

this is the exact post that i expected from you. most of the ways you tried to prove your point just there was by using his mindless campaign rhetoric. that seriously doesnt mean anything. im sorry but there is no way you can prove to me the sincerity of his what his campaign was saying.



ne ways, you were totally wrong with the first point i made. you totally missed the mark. that wasnt what i was saying at all. im talking about the stuff he said during veitnam and now what hes saying about this war. yea yea i know, ive said it myself, vietnam doesnt mean anything. you can easily contrast the type of person he is from it. no president, even if they dont support it, should ever put down their role in a conflict they are involved in. thats like basic troop moral class 101.



as i said before, im happy bush won. hes the right man for the job.
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Re: Us Election

Post by Doug »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000+Nov 8 2004, 05:43 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (yoaliens3000 @ Nov 8 2004, 05:43 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'this is the exact post that i expected from you. most of the ways you tried to prove your point just there was by using his mindless campaign rhetoric. that seriously doesnt mean anything. im sorry but there is no way you can prove to me the sincerity of his what his campaign was saying.[/b]




And what the Bush campaign said during the campaign is any more legitimate than what the Kerry campaign said, why? C'mon, both sides of every campaign spew shit that they won't be able to do, inculding Bush.



Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 8 2004, 05:43 PM

ne ways, you were totally wrong with the first point i made. you totally missed the mark.




Wait...what's the mark then? I got the same thing...:huh:



<!--QuoteBegin-yoaliens3000
@Nov 8 2004, 05:43 PM

no president, even if they dont support it, should ever put down their role in a conflict they are involved in. thats like basic troop moral class 101.[/quote]



Well, I'd hope the president wouldn't put down his own plan to win the war without changing anything. Remember, Kerry was the challenger.



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Re: Us Election

Post by FryGuy »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 8 2004, 03:43 PM

im talking about the stuff he said during veitnam and now what hes saying about this war.


What he said durring Vietnam? Are you saying that American troops raping, slaughtering, and torturing civilians should go unmentioned? He brought the atrocities of that war before the American peoples eyes. What our troops then were violations of the Geneva Conventions, and the people needed to know so we could get our guys out of there.



He is right, this is the wrong war at the wrong time. We didn't need to invade Iraq, but we did, and now we need to try to clean things up and get our troops out of there. Many soldiers aren't even sure why they're there, and realize that the invasion was wrong.





Either way, I still got the same mark as everyone else on your original comment.
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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

Originally posted by Doug+Nov 8 2004, 08:25 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (Doug @ Nov 8 2004, 08:25 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'<!--QuoteBegin-yoaliens3000@Nov 8 2004, 05:43 PM

this is the exact post that i expected from you. most of the ways you tried to prove your point just there was by using his mindless campaign rhetoric. that seriously doesnt mean anything. im sorry but there is no way you can prove to me the sincerity of his what his campaign was saying.


And what the Bush campaign said during the campaign is any more legitimate than what the Kerry campaign said, why? C'mon, both sides of every campaign spew shit that they won't be able to do, inculding Bush.[/b][/quote]



i agree, i never said the bush campaign was any different.
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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

I'd just love for you to clarify what 'mindless campaign rhetoric' I was 'spewing.'
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

Originally posted by Brad@Nov 8 2004, 10:29 PM

I'd just love for you to clarify what 'mindless campaign rhetoric' I was 'spewing.'


i think you can differentiate without the help of me.
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Re: Us Election

Post by Doug »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000+Nov 8 2004, 08:58 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (yoaliens3000 @ Nov 8 2004, 08:58 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'<!--QuoteBegin-Brad@Nov 8 2004, 10:29 PM

I'd just love for you to clarify what 'mindless campaign rhetoric' I was 'spewing.'


i think you can differentiate without the help of me.[/b][/quote]



Apparently he can't, so, if you will...



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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

Originally posted by Doug+Nov 9 2004, 12:30 AM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (Doug @ Nov 9 2004, 12:30 AM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'
Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 8 2004, 08:58 PM

<!--QuoteBegin-Brad
@Nov 8 2004, 10:29 PM

I'd just love for you to clarify what 'mindless campaign rhetoric' I was 'spewing.'




i think you can differentiate without the help of me.


Apparently he can't, so, if you will...



Doug[/b][/quote]


Oh, did he now? He went on the record insulting American troops? See, I've heard him say several times how much he respects and related to the fighting men and women of the United States. Could it be he wasn't criticizing the troops, but just the war itself?

To me, it seems as though he wants to find a better strategy to win. But maybe that's just me. No, wait, it isn't. He said as much during the debates.

Frankly, I expect the challenger of the incumbent president to criticize the government's actions, military or no. You take offense to that? You would rather he simply agreed with every aciton and policy of the Bush administration? You think that it's a mistake? Obviously, unquestioning loyalty is a trait you value highly.


no i dont take offense to that. why the hell would i? your trying to make it personal, when its not. id like it if he wouldnt put down our troops in harms way. and if he wouldnt put down allied countrys helping us. i dont care if he puts down the administration, everyone does. thats what hes susposed to do as his challenger. but thats not only what hes doing.



its very hard for you to admitt that kerry has some faults, ive noticed that. i do not stand by bush on everything. i could name countless issues that i dont agree with bush on.



anyways, the election is over. why are we still debating this? kerry and edward's political careers are destroyed. bush is president. i think i can see the futures of threads on this forum. people we post "failures" of bush and say that kerry would have done it better. this is going to be interesting.
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Re: Us Election

Post by Doug »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000+Nov 9 2004, 09:32 AM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (yoaliens3000 @ Nov 9 2004, 09:32 AM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'anyways, the election is over. why are we still debating this? kerry and edward's political careers are destroyed. bush is president. i think i can see the futures of threads on this forum.[/b]




Actually, it's being said that Kerry is going to become a very powerful senator. And, after all, it is Massachusettes that he's representing, so he should be re-elected in 06.



<!--QuoteBegin-yoaliens3000
@Nov 9 2004, 09:32 AM

people we post "failures" of bush and say that kerry would have done it better. this is going to be interesting.[/quote]



Way to be optimistic!



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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

id like it if he wouldnt put down our troops in harms way. and if he wouldnt put down allied countrys helping us.


When did Kerry 'put down' the troops? You keep claiming it, but I haven't heard of one instance where Kerry deliberately insulted the American troops. This isn't 'campaign rhetoric' this is me pointing out what's godamn obvious. EVEN IF Kerry didn't like the troops for some obscure reason (maybe he's a pinko commie bastard!!!!!!!!) it would make no sense whatsoever for him to denounce them, especially concerning his political career. And when did he ever put down countries that were a part of the coalition (not that I would blame him if he did, the mighty 'coalition of the willing' isn't that impressive... Britain is the only other superpower involved)? Conversely, do you think that Bush is doing a better job at securing international favor than Kerry could?


QUOTE (Brad @ Nov 8 2004, 10:29 PM)

I'd just love for you to clarify what 'mindless campaign rhetoric' I was 'spewing.'







i think you can differentiate without the help of me.


Um... I was making basic observations about Kerry's political strategy. I was disagreeing with your claims that Kerry 'disrespected the troops'. You can't dismiss everything so easily. Just because I disapprove of Bush does not invalidate every point I make automatically.


by raping them of thier moral and country pride, kerry would help the enemy.


Hah, I missed this awesome appeal to emotion argument you threw out there a couple posts back. Wicked use of 'rape' in order to justify your perspective. Extra points for making Kerry appeal to be on the side of some dark, insidious, yet insubstancial "Enemy" figure.


its very hard for you to admitt that kerry has some faults, ive noticed that.


Oh, sorry. Here you go: Kerry has faults. He has policies I don't agree with.



Happy? The reason I would have liked to see Kerry win is because a ) He's not Bush and B ) He's NOT Bush.
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

your reasons for why you would have liked to see kerry win are pretty pathetic.


When did Kerry 'put down' the troops? You keep claiming it, but I haven't heard of one instance where Kerry deliberately insulted the American troops. This isn't 'campaign rhetoric' this is me pointing out what's godamn obvious. EVEN IF Kerry didn't like the troops for some obscure reason (maybe he's a pinko commie bastard!!!!!!!!) it would make no sense whatsoever for him to denounce them, especially concerning his political career. And when did he ever put down countries that were a part of the coalition (not that I would blame him if he did, the mighty 'coalition of the willing' isn't that impressive... Britain is the only other superpower involved)? Conversely, do you think that Bush is doing a better job at securing international favor than Kerry could?


everytime he calls is the wrong war at the wrong time. everytime he blasts bush for sending troops over there saying it was a terrible decision. this is defintiely campaign rhetoric. i dont see how u can argue that. he freakin put down poland during one of the debates. there was huge fuss over it. the president or whoever of poland denouced kerry for it. how can u deny this happened? people here at HT even made a big deal outta it.



imo, kerry would do nothing to secure international favor. he would be another clinton.
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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

Originally posted by Doug+Nov 9 2004, 01:20 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (Doug @ Nov 9 2004, 01:20 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'
Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 9 2004, 09:32 AM

anyways, the election is over. why are we still debating this? kerry and edward's political careers are destroyed. bush is president. i think i can see the futures of threads on this forum.




Actually, it's being said that Kerry is going to become a very powerful senator. And, after all, it is Massachusettes that he's representing, so he should be re-elected in 06.



<!--QuoteBegin-yoaliens3000
@Nov 9 2004, 09:32 AM

people we post "failures" of bush and say that kerry would have done it better. this is going to be interesting.


Way to be optimistic!



Doug[/b][/quote]



sure he will get re-elected again. for the exact reason you provided, its massachusettes. he wont have much power though.



optimistic ehh
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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

Originally posted by yoaliens3000@Nov 9 2004, 02:36 PM





everytime he calls is the wrong war at the wrong time. everytime he blasts bush for sending troops over there saying it was a terrible decision. this is defintiely campaign rhetoric.


Wow. You have to understand something very fundamental. The war does not define what kind of men and women serve in the army. Just because it's an unjust war does not mean the troops automatically are at fault. They didn't have a choice. They were sent there, willing or no, because they are soldiers and they do what they're told.



By your logic, do you think all Vietnam vets are bad people for taking part in that war? Or would you call every German WWII veterans evil bastards because they fought for the Nazis? To do so would be ridiculous and ignorant. And what makes you think Kerry can't make the distinction between the war and its soldiers? Hell, he was a soldier at one point, so I think he of all people should be able to realize the soldiers do not neccessarily reflect the mistakes of the government.


he freakin put down poland during one of the debates. there was huge fuss over it. the president or whoever of poland denouced kerry for it.


He didn't put down Poland. He insinuated that other countries in Iraq weren't providing a whole lot of aid. And you know what: He was right. Poland's contribution is miniscule compared to the cost America is paying for in lives and money. That's not putting down Poland, that's the goddamn truth. You can tell yourself all you want that he hates Poland or insulted it's pride, or whatever you want to get self-righteous about, but at the end of the day you have to look at the facts. Poland isn't a superpower. Poland is not a great power. It's not even a top middle power. It's a low middle power. It simply cannot provide much relief in the Iraq efforts. It isn't something people should get upset about, it's a reality. Putting down Poland is saying something along the lines of: "the polish are lazy," or "the Poles will let anyone conquer them." He didn't say anything like that. He said that America was doing most of the work in Iraq. That's the truth.
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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Re: Us Election

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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

I'm pretty sure that the people got their knickers in a twist were taking things too literally, too.



The way I see it, the main point Kerry was trying to raise was that the other nations in the coalition were not (either by choice or because they were incapable, like Poland) sending enough troops, participating in enough. I believe Kerry was claiming not that the present members were irresponsible, but that there wasn't enough nations willing to share the burden. He was saying that Bush had been alienating the rest of the world, and America needs their help now, instead of their scorn.



People that got offended by this are the ones taking things too literally. They need to see the big picture, and not find insults where there are none.
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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Re: Us Election

Post by yoaliens3000 »

we just have different opinions about this both biased by our support of one side. i dont see the need to argue this any further.
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Re: Us Election

Post by Brad »

Fair enough. But let me clarify one thing: I don't support Kerry in the conventional sense. He is hardly the ideal man for president. The main reason I wanted him to win is so Bush and his neo-conservative cadre would no longer be in power.
Democracy. It rolls off the tongue nicely. Better than others. I can say it, spell it, define it, but can?t admit to ever believing it. So convoluted has it become that it has mesmerized generations into a comma of perfect sublimity. You dance to the music of your youth, identify with your own memory, become a time capsule of numb comfort. And there, mired in the exhaustion of a life in progress, you surrender your right to question for the luxury of not being bothered.



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