Accusations

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SirPostAlot
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Accusations

Post by SirPostAlot » Sun May 01, 2005 10:37 pm

Coming out can be very emotional for the person doing it, but for me and probably you, it was made even harder by peoples accusations on our homosexuality.



The majority of accusations that i have heard, i am going to list below and explain why they aren't true. If you have any, please share. I have used these as defence, so you can too if you wish...



:hug:



1. Homosexuality is a "fad" that our generation created and it doesn't actually exsist.

This is the one that agrivates me the most simply because we obviously did not create homosexuality. What i tell people when they tell me this, is to look back into history. There are rumors that some great, famous, historial people have been bi/gay. Such people are Shakespeare and Abraham Lincoln. People say that love letters signing off as "love" by the signature back then was a sign of friendship, but though it may have been true and may have explained some of the people who we say are bi/gay, its not true with many others. There is some evidence that Shakespear, for instance, was at least bisexual becuase there is written love letters with intamacy between himself and the Earl of England; however, no one is actually 100% positive about anything that occured before the 19th century...



2. We do it for attention

I personally do not beleive people do it for attention. True there are some horny people who just want to make out or w/e and becuase of which they will say they are bisexual, but for the majority of people they are not doing it for attention.



3. We are doing it to get closer to the opposite gender.

My friends told me this the other day. They told me that they do not believe i am gay, they just think i am doing it to get closer to them. I mean i highly doubt anyone actually does this. Friends do not bond becasue they are attracted to the same gender. They bond becuase of their personal interests and their personalities...







Those are the main three that i hear around. Please share other accusations and why they are obviously not true...



Thank you! :)



~Jeff~





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Re: Accusations

Post by wagon_wheel » Mon May 02, 2005 12:30 am

People are just stupid and your going to have to put up with people making these accusations all throught your life and most liking not just because of your sexuality.

I think you should tell these people how it is wrong to accuse people of stuff like that....tell them how hurtful it is....and tell them how you feel...but remember not to get mad right away because if your yelling at them they probably won't listen and therefore not learn anything.

Also remember that some of these accusations can be true....a person I know for example kissed girls and actually dated an actual lesbian and she did this for guy attention......and that its okay to acknoweledgte that there are people out there who fit under them.
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Re: Accusations

Post by FranklinF » Mon May 02, 2005 8:25 am

i actually do know a guy who claims to be gay because girls dont like him.... he has admited it .....sad because girls like hang all over him.... but i agree with you jeff these things ppl say are retarded-MARY
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Re: Accusations

Post by Skye » Mon May 02, 2005 8:44 pm

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Re: Accusations

Post by Jaegermeister » Mon May 02, 2005 9:37 pm

My bit about the history thing is that especially in Medieval times, and this carried over into the Reniassance a bit, the whole chivalry/knights of valor/honor code makes it really diffucult tto tell what is meant as gay and what is meant as dear. Wheras men would talk of love for other men and things like that, for the most part it is only meant in a comrade in arms type of way, but the argument goes that as the openness of words of affection increases, so does the openness of physical expression also increased. Where it leaves grey is how much that actually happened. I remember reading somewhere that there is documentation of homosexuality in the Medieval world, but I cannot for the life of me think where it is.



Another thing to think about when delving into history is that until probably the mid 1800's(ish), very few people were actually literate. Again, in Medieval times, kings in fact, by and large were NOT literate. The only real group of people that had a high literacy rate in the middle ages was the priesthood. So, when you are attempting to create a (homosexual) history for the Middle Ages, and into the Reniassance, paper and ink and literacy were so low that there are very few records. So, in history, trying to prove that homosexuality exists is going to be tough. BUT, as a very large piece of historical evidence,that homosexuality was around back in the day, look at the Bible. Even if you don't believe the words, it's still a historical text from that time period, and it talks about homosexuality a fair bit.



Skye, history as proof of what occured is really only the surface of what it really is. "If 100 people see an event, there will be 100 stories of what happened." The events that took place are simple to place in history. The motives, the causes, the results, and the reactions, however, are not now nor will they ever be 100% agreed upon. That's where sexuality will fall. The problem is that proof, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Whereas you can take the 100 versions of the events and say that X happened because of Y, there's nothing to stop me from reading the 100 versions and saying that X happened because of Z. Historians will argue until the end of the world about things like that, and the gay debate about historical figures will always be there. There is evidence to support a hypothesis that Lincoln was gay/bisexual. I can't give you the evidence, but if you really want it, go and buy the book by C.A. Tripp, The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln.



tJ
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Re: Accusations

Post by Skye » Tue May 03, 2005 1:30 am

Jaegermeister, that does not change anything. There is still no substantiation for any of the claims in the original post or the revised post. They are at best opinions and even when you give them that much credit they are mere speculation fraught with inconsistencies.



You can say the sexual preference "gay" existed in the Middle Ages and before that all you want and I will not argue this. I know it existed back then even if it was not heavily written about because there are mentions of it in ancient times just like incest (one of the more famous examples is Oedipus Rex). It was there just like it is today. But you cannot label some of the most iconic men in American and world history as homosexuals without any proof one way or the other. If you want to be an iconoclast -- fine. Be one. Just have the proof.
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Re: Accusations

Post by Jaegermeister » Tue May 03, 2005 9:54 am

Originally posted by Skye@May 3 2005, 12:30 AM

They are at best opinions and even when you give them that much credit they are mere speculation fraught with inconsistencies.

[right][/right]

But Skye, opinions which are given credit is what history IS. Do we really know exactly why the Roman Empire fell? Do we really know why Germany united? Do we really how the heck Spain and Portugal ever managed to get imperial enough to find a new world? Do we factually know that Lincoln was completely and totally straight? The "why's" of history can never be fully answered, and so people always will be putting forth their opinions on it. If we follow your logic, then why the Roman Empire fell would also be "mere speculation fraught with inconsistancies."



Like I said before, if you really want to hear the other guy's arguments, go and read the book. If you'd like to shrug off a PUBLISHED ACADEMIC WORK as mere speculation fraught with inconsistancies then be my guest, but I am telling you that in my historically trained opinion that the book about Lincoln's sexuality, the author read his sources well and did not take them anywhere that a historian shouldn't take their sources. Any historian (or historian in training) knows how to interpret sources, and while I did not draw the exact same conclusion, as I am not a Lincoln experct, I would say that Tripp's theory deserves to be considered as a historical possibility.



tJ



PS Skye, whether intentionally or not, you really offended me. Firstly, you say there is no substantiation for the claim, yet I gave it to you (a book by C.A. Tripp) and you all but ignored it. Secondly, by calling the theory that Lincoln was gay "at best opinions and even when you give them that much credit they are mere speculation fraught with inconsistencies" you are telling me that work done by distinguished historians, work done by my professors (some of whom ARE distinguished historians), my classmates, and myself can also be thrown away because they are all "at best opinions and when you give them that much credit they are mere speculation fraught with inconsistencies." You demeaned me, and you demean the whole study of history.
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Re: Accusations

Post by Skye » Tue May 03, 2005 12:22 pm

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Re: Accusations

Post by yoaliens3000 » Tue May 03, 2005 3:54 pm

*offtopic...



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Re: Accusations

Post by Jaegermeister » Tue May 03, 2005 5:45 pm

*edit - now that his post was edited, this isn't necessary...*



Now, Skye, since the topic's been explored, I'll continue with it. There's a lot more historical possibility out there than there is fact. Fact: Emporer Constantine "converted" (since how authentic his personal conversion was in a bit up in the air) to Christianity in 312. AD. Possibility: Constantine's conversion was a contributing factor in the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Just like you said, there are tons of other reasons, and as I'm lifting from one of my texts here: "The "decline and fall" of the Western Empire has fascinated historians of centuries...Many reasons have benn proposed--no less than 210 different causes according to a recent survey." There are lots of primary sources from that period, but none of them actually come out and say "Oh, our Empire is declining this is the reason why." All historians can do is sit back and SPECULATE on the reasons why. There are certainly more credible and more accepted theories than others, the book I quoted earlier mentions a historian who asserted that male homosexuality was a cause of the fall of the West, which is kinda silly, but reasons as what you put, as well as vast increases in foreign citizens, an empire that is too large to travel easily, desertion of the cities, things like that are more widely accepted. There's nothing to say that it's absolute fact that because of the desertion of the cities and the return to village life, Rome fell.



It's the same way with this whole Lincoln debate. Tripp is postulating something new and different, and you're right, I would love to see more works to back Tripp up if he is in fact true, but about the only way we'll be able to definatively "prove" that Honest Abe did love the cock is if we find the journal of John. Q. Homo which says "Man Abe Lincoln gives the best head on earth." (And I'm sorry, for all you cynics out there who would love an excuse to pick at what I'm saying, this is an example of me using hyperbole and common speech to simplify my point). I use quotes because you know there will always be a debate about whether John Q. Homo is really a lover of Lincoln, if he was just fantasizing, if he was delusional, ect ect ect..... But, as Tripp is the first person to delve into this, of course he will be met with skepticism, but there's no reason to be overly harsh on something like this, which I think your comment "mere speculation fraught with inconsistancies" was just a tad.



tJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



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Re: Accusations

Post by yoaliens3000 » Tue May 03, 2005 6:07 pm

*edit...see your other post...*



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Re: Accusations

Post by Skye » Tue May 03, 2005 6:40 pm

Yoaliens, please just leave if you wish to keep that attitude up.



Jaegermeister:

Constantine "converted" but he had political motivations as well. He worshipped Apollo before the "God" you know in Christian beliefs until his death. He wasted his time building churches and his grand new city Constantinople. Oh who would have guessed the narcissism of a roman emperor could name a city after him self!? His greatest achievement was the championing and spread of Catholicism throughout the remaining empire but that was happening already. He just chose to take advantage of it and make it "legal" to practice Catholicism in the empire. Constantine was also not a very intelligent man when it came to foreign policy and often cowered when it came to the push. His wife was greatly involved here and pretty much was responsible for the latter part of his reign as emperor.



Though you don't see me screaming "GIRL POWER!" when I mention his wife.



When Constantine died he divided the Empire between his three sons who pretty much led the empire astray until Theodosius came along. I'm pretty sure it was Theodosius anyway. And then Rome was now under a single emperor again and began to prosper a bit. He pretty much banned all religions of pagan decent and made Christianity the state religion. At this point Rome would suffer a series of invasions by Germanic tribes and eventually in 455 the Vandals conquered Rome. This was the beginning of the Byzantines who basically maintained what was left of the Eastern empire. If we go any further, we get into the more modern ages of Europe.
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Re: Accusations

Post by Wheretogo » Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 pm

*edit...please stay on topic...

take it to PM please...

or ask it in another topic in whcih it would be revelent...



~Jeff~
Why give up, why give in?

It's not enough, it never is.

So I will go on until
the end.

We've become desolate.

It's not enough, it never
is.

But I will go on until the end.

I've lost my way.

I've lost my way, but I will go on until the end.

Living is
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Without you fucking up.

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Re: Accusations

Post by Skye » Tue May 03, 2005 10:33 pm

- Topic has been unpinned and moved to the Current Events & Debates forum.
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Re: Accusations

Post by Wheretogo » Tue May 03, 2005 10:57 pm

it was already off topic jeff.. whatever, i wasnt the one who took it off topic... thanks... you can go away now. i stand by my question which im not going to ask again and its not worth a whole other topic and this whole topic was one large ass debate ... jeff your just moody....
Why give up, why give in?

It's not enough, it never is.

So I will go on until
the end.

We've become desolate.

It's not enough, it never
is.

But I will go on until the end.

I've lost my way.

I've lost my way, but I will go on until the end.

Living is
hard enough

Without you fucking up.

Until The End - Breaking Benjamin

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