This Make Me Angry....
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- CanadaCraig
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This Make Me Angry....
Hi Everyone!!
THINGS like this REALLY make me angry.
How do YOU feel about it?
[from a ctv.ca newsite]
A 14-year-old girl hockey player has won the right to share the same locker room with her male teammates.
News Brunswick's Human Rights Commission has ruled that Brigette LeBlanc's rights were violated when she was forced to use a separate change room.
LeBlanc has been playing hockey since the age of five. Her sense of camaraderie took a hit three years ago when she was made to use a separate change room.
It felt like I was alone. I was always alone and I was the only girl on the team," she told ATV News.
While she didn't mind at first, LeBlanc realized she was missing out on important coaching tips.
Her parents asked for a change to allow her to use the same change room, but that request was denied by Moncton's minor hockey association.
The next step was filing a complaint with the provincial human rights commission, which the LeBlancs did in August 2002, when Brigette was 12. It ruled co-ed hockey team players can't be segregated.
"They don't have to feel like second-rate players and teammates," said Nicole LeBlanc, Brigette's mother. "They are there and they deserve equality. It's not a privilege to be there with the boys. It's not a privilege to be treated equally -- it's their right. And that's the way it has to be."
The ruling does come with a proviso: The boys must wear shorts at all time and girls must wear shorts and t-shirts. Showers must be taken at separate times, although many shower at home anyway.
Former coach Joe Richard endorses the changes.
"For the girl, if they get to dress in the other dressing room, they don't get to chat with the players," he said.
"And even when you have before the game, when the coach comes in and say how we going to play the game and talk about it," he said, adding female players also lose out on the camaraderie.
Bridgette is trying out for a girl's high school hockey team this year, so she may not benefit from the victory.
But her parents say it's still important because it changes the sport for future generations of female hockey players in New Brunswick.
With a report from ATV's Nicolle Carlin"
In MY opinion - a GIRL should NOT be allowed to play on a BOYS hockey team. [or any other BOYS team] And now this. [read story above] Speaking as a person with a penis - it's extremely important to the development of a BOY to have time to bond with OTHER BOYS. [that's how they become MEN] Once you throw a GIRL into that - it destroys that bonding process. Some of you may say that it's her 'right'. But what about the 'rights' of the BOYS? And what if it were the other way around? If you agree that the girl should be 1.) allowed to play ON a BOYS hockey team and 2.) be in the same changing room WITH all the boys - would you just a strongly support the 'rights' of a BOY to play on a GIRLS hockey team and CHANGE with the GIRLS in the GIRLS locker room?
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
THINGS like this REALLY make me angry.
How do YOU feel about it?
[from a ctv.ca newsite]
A 14-year-old girl hockey player has won the right to share the same locker room with her male teammates.
News Brunswick's Human Rights Commission has ruled that Brigette LeBlanc's rights were violated when she was forced to use a separate change room.
LeBlanc has been playing hockey since the age of five. Her sense of camaraderie took a hit three years ago when she was made to use a separate change room.
It felt like I was alone. I was always alone and I was the only girl on the team," she told ATV News.
While she didn't mind at first, LeBlanc realized she was missing out on important coaching tips.
Her parents asked for a change to allow her to use the same change room, but that request was denied by Moncton's minor hockey association.
The next step was filing a complaint with the provincial human rights commission, which the LeBlancs did in August 2002, when Brigette was 12. It ruled co-ed hockey team players can't be segregated.
"They don't have to feel like second-rate players and teammates," said Nicole LeBlanc, Brigette's mother. "They are there and they deserve equality. It's not a privilege to be there with the boys. It's not a privilege to be treated equally -- it's their right. And that's the way it has to be."
The ruling does come with a proviso: The boys must wear shorts at all time and girls must wear shorts and t-shirts. Showers must be taken at separate times, although many shower at home anyway.
Former coach Joe Richard endorses the changes.
"For the girl, if they get to dress in the other dressing room, they don't get to chat with the players," he said.
"And even when you have before the game, when the coach comes in and say how we going to play the game and talk about it," he said, adding female players also lose out on the camaraderie.
Bridgette is trying out for a girl's high school hockey team this year, so she may not benefit from the victory.
But her parents say it's still important because it changes the sport for future generations of female hockey players in New Brunswick.
With a report from ATV's Nicolle Carlin"
In MY opinion - a GIRL should NOT be allowed to play on a BOYS hockey team. [or any other BOYS team] And now this. [read story above] Speaking as a person with a penis - it's extremely important to the development of a BOY to have time to bond with OTHER BOYS. [that's how they become MEN] Once you throw a GIRL into that - it destroys that bonding process. Some of you may say that it's her 'right'. But what about the 'rights' of the BOYS? And what if it were the other way around? If you agree that the girl should be 1.) allowed to play ON a BOYS hockey team and 2.) be in the same changing room WITH all the boys - would you just a strongly support the 'rights' of a BOY to play on a GIRLS hockey team and CHANGE with the GIRLS in the GIRLS locker room?
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
"It takes FAR MORE COURAGE to be KIND than it does to be CRUEL!!"
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- Jaegermeister
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
It really depends on the situation I guess. If there is no girls hockey team for her to be on, I fully support that she should be on the boy's team and allowed to change in the locker rooms with them. If there is a girl's team and she's playing on the boy's team just to be a rebel, then I say she should be on the girl's team. The same goes in the opposite direction. If a guy wants to be on a team in which there are no men's teams, volleyball or field hockey for example, then by all means that boy should be allowed to play. I totally agree with that coach, that if this girl is forced to change in a different locker room, she would lose out on team bonding time. There are plenty of other opportunities for guys to bond with other guys. But in the locker room is probably one of the most important places for a team to bond. It's where the pep talks, the bitching, the whining, the motivation, the bullshit, the pranks, it's where all that stuff happens. During practice there really isn't time to talk or to hang out or whatever. But in the locker room it's pretty much the team lounge. It's where people hang out after practice (depending on how plush it is they may hang out longer). As a lifetime athlete, and one that's been on both co-ed and single sex teams before, gender doesn't really matter. After my freshman year of college a couple of teammates of mine and I rented a house and lived around campus for the summer, and we would practice, shower, and change together. It was 2 guys and 3 girls. Gender really didn't matter. It was our camraderie and friendship, and the fact that we are the next best thing to naked with each other all the time (as swimmers), I really just didn't care about it. It's pretty much irrelevant. On a team, you bond as teammates, not as girl/boy, boy/boy, girl/girl.
tJ
tJ
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- CanadaCraig
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
Hi Jaegermeister!!
I appreciate the response.
I still hold to the belief that it's NOT good for BOYS [or girls - for that matter] to have someone of the opposite sex on their team. You mentioned that while you were in college you lived in a house that comprised of 2 guys and 3 girls AND that everything was OK. But then - it should be - shouldn't it? The 5 people in that house were ADULTS. [were they not?] My concern is for KIDS. The hockey team is comprised of 14 year old boys. [for the most part] All-boy teams were the 'norm' in Canada [teams were allowed by law to reject an applicant based on sex] until a girl [with her mother] took THAT idea to court. [several years ago] She won. The team was dragged back to court again just recently [not sure if it's the same girl] to win the 'right' to change WITH the boys. This isn't about a single persons 'right' to play on a team. Many people will not be allowed to play. [for one reason or another] I couldn't join that team. And [believe it or not] in Canada I would have a case against the team for AGE discrimination. [it is the law in Canada that NO ONE be discriminated against on the basis of AGE, race, sex, orientation, etc.] Society DOES accept - however - that there are lines in the sand. And many agree that a girl on a boys team crosses that line. [which is what I believe] We live in an odd society that is far too often willing to sacrifice countless numbers of people just to FEEL good. It makes SOME people FEEL good to be able to say, "Yes - female person - YOU can do WHATEVER YOU WANT to DO!!" But at what cost? Now the BOYS have to accommadate that GIRL. The dynamics of the team were changed the day she joined the team. And now the dynamics of the locker room will change too. No longer can the BOYS on the team JUST BE BOYS. They can't even walk around NAKED. And as silly as that might sound to SOME people - the 'right' to walk around naked with other GUYS is a BIG PART of the male bonding process. It's how we come to accept ourselves physically. And it's also how a boy deals with his natural curiousities insofar as what other boys LOOK like. [and how he compares with them, etc.] The same is true for girls on an all-girls team. But now THAT 'right' has been sacrificed.
You said, "There are plenty of other opportunities for guys to bond with other guys." Like WHERE - for instance? Historically - it's BEEN sports teams where guys COULD bond. This is why sports are SO important. It's the only socially accepted venue for MALES to bond.
It is said that a frog - if dropped into a bucket of boiling hot water - will do everything it can do to JUMP OUT. But if you put a frog in cold water and then heat up that water - the frog will stay IN the water until it boils to death. I believe that society is in a bucket of water that is getting frighteningly warmer every day - and yet IT doesn't feel a thing. Too dramatic a reference? How could one little girl on a boys hockey team cause ANY societal problems? Well.. that's how it happens. If is was obvious - more people would care. [and they should]
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
I appreciate the response.
I still hold to the belief that it's NOT good for BOYS [or girls - for that matter] to have someone of the opposite sex on their team. You mentioned that while you were in college you lived in a house that comprised of 2 guys and 3 girls AND that everything was OK. But then - it should be - shouldn't it? The 5 people in that house were ADULTS. [were they not?] My concern is for KIDS. The hockey team is comprised of 14 year old boys. [for the most part] All-boy teams were the 'norm' in Canada [teams were allowed by law to reject an applicant based on sex] until a girl [with her mother] took THAT idea to court. [several years ago] She won. The team was dragged back to court again just recently [not sure if it's the same girl] to win the 'right' to change WITH the boys. This isn't about a single persons 'right' to play on a team. Many people will not be allowed to play. [for one reason or another] I couldn't join that team. And [believe it or not] in Canada I would have a case against the team for AGE discrimination. [it is the law in Canada that NO ONE be discriminated against on the basis of AGE, race, sex, orientation, etc.] Society DOES accept - however - that there are lines in the sand. And many agree that a girl on a boys team crosses that line. [which is what I believe] We live in an odd society that is far too often willing to sacrifice countless numbers of people just to FEEL good. It makes SOME people FEEL good to be able to say, "Yes - female person - YOU can do WHATEVER YOU WANT to DO!!" But at what cost? Now the BOYS have to accommadate that GIRL. The dynamics of the team were changed the day she joined the team. And now the dynamics of the locker room will change too. No longer can the BOYS on the team JUST BE BOYS. They can't even walk around NAKED. And as silly as that might sound to SOME people - the 'right' to walk around naked with other GUYS is a BIG PART of the male bonding process. It's how we come to accept ourselves physically. And it's also how a boy deals with his natural curiousities insofar as what other boys LOOK like. [and how he compares with them, etc.] The same is true for girls on an all-girls team. But now THAT 'right' has been sacrificed.
You said, "There are plenty of other opportunities for guys to bond with other guys." Like WHERE - for instance? Historically - it's BEEN sports teams where guys COULD bond. This is why sports are SO important. It's the only socially accepted venue for MALES to bond.
It is said that a frog - if dropped into a bucket of boiling hot water - will do everything it can do to JUMP OUT. But if you put a frog in cold water and then heat up that water - the frog will stay IN the water until it boils to death. I believe that society is in a bucket of water that is getting frighteningly warmer every day - and yet IT doesn't feel a thing. Too dramatic a reference? How could one little girl on a boys hockey team cause ANY societal problems? Well.. that's how it happens. If is was obvious - more people would care. [and they should]
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
"It takes FAR MORE COURAGE to be KIND than it does to be CRUEL!!"
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- Toy Soldier
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
I usaully think nowadays men are more discriminated againist...a girl is allowed to do stuff with a group of guys, like get changed in the same cloakrooms, but if a guy tried to do that in a girls cloakroom, he'd be in big shit.It's the same thing with clubs...a girl can join the Boy Scouts, but a guy CANNOT join the Girl Guides...why? What happened to everybody being equal? Surely that means men and women should be on the same equal basis...meh.
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- turtbub
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
I agree with Ruth. I'm ALL for equal rights between men and women, but I think we've gone so far that women now have more rights than MEN.
And that's not right either. I think that girls should be allowed to play on a "boy's" team and change in the same room, yes. But I don't even think there should be "boys" and "girls" teams. I think it should all be co-ed. That would save a lot of this drama.
Feminism has stepped a little too far over, if you ask me, and now guys are the ones getting their rights stepped on.
Just my opinion.
And that's not right either. I think that girls should be allowed to play on a "boy's" team and change in the same room, yes. But I don't even think there should be "boys" and "girls" teams. I think it should all be co-ed. That would save a lot of this drama.
Feminism has stepped a little too far over, if you ask me, and now guys are the ones getting their rights stepped on.
Just my opinion.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
- GodLovesU_929
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
that doesnt really agrivate me at all.
Craig,
haveing one girl in the group of guys will probably have nothing to do with their male bonding......... AT ALL....... if anything, it will have an effect on the girl. I dont think there is anything wrong with these things if the girl is willing to change in the boys locker room. I think it's perfectly fine.
Craig,
haveing one girl in the group of guys will probably have nothing to do with their male bonding......... AT ALL....... if anything, it will have an effect on the girl. I dont think there is anything wrong with these things if the girl is willing to change in the boys locker room. I think it's perfectly fine.
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- CanadaCraig
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
Hi Everyone!!
Men and women do NOT have equal privilages - and because of that - they are NOT 'equals'. Women have a tremendous advantage over men. No matter what they choose to DO - they never put at risk their identity as a woman. A girl who fights for what she believes is her 'right' to play on a boys team would be a hero to many [if not most] females. A male who would fight for his 'right' to play on a girls team [if that were to happen] would become an instant outcast. Not only among most other males - but among most females too. Is that fair? Does that sound like equality to you? I hope not. Because it IS not. But that IS how it IS.
Imagine - if you will - three rooms. Each of these rooms has a door.
On the first door it says, "FEMALES ONLY".
On the second door it says, "BOTH SEXES".
On the third door it says, "MALES ONLY".
Many [if not most] females believe [without question] that they should have unfettered access to ALL THREE ROOMS. To deny them such access - would be considered UNFAIR. I believe that most MALES [although they usually keep it to themselves - having been immasculated over the years] believe that it is UNFAIR for a female to have unfettered access to all three rooms - given the fact that THEY do NOT. Some females - in defense of their belief - will say that they believe that males SHOULD have access to all three rooms. That certainly SOUNDS nice - but it's not realistic. And it's rarely something that society permits. The pendulum - at one time - swung unfairly in advantage of males. Given that - women certainly were justified when it came to correcting that injustice. But now the pendulum has swung the other way. And until woman accept and acknowledge that MEN have RIGHTS TOO - then they should stop trying to convince all of us [both males AND females] that it is 'equality' that they are fighting for. The fight is over. Now it's time for the pendulum to be allowed to settle somewhere near the center.
Do not mistake what I am saying as if I am in FAVOUR of both sexes having unfettered access to ALL THREE ROOMS - because that is NOT what I believe. Co-ed teams MIGHT be OK in SOME cases - but co-ed changing room will never be OK. [for the reasons I've already mentioned in my second message.
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
Men and women do NOT have equal privilages - and because of that - they are NOT 'equals'. Women have a tremendous advantage over men. No matter what they choose to DO - they never put at risk their identity as a woman. A girl who fights for what she believes is her 'right' to play on a boys team would be a hero to many [if not most] females. A male who would fight for his 'right' to play on a girls team [if that were to happen] would become an instant outcast. Not only among most other males - but among most females too. Is that fair? Does that sound like equality to you? I hope not. Because it IS not. But that IS how it IS.
Imagine - if you will - three rooms. Each of these rooms has a door.
On the first door it says, "FEMALES ONLY".
On the second door it says, "BOTH SEXES".
On the third door it says, "MALES ONLY".
Many [if not most] females believe [without question] that they should have unfettered access to ALL THREE ROOMS. To deny them such access - would be considered UNFAIR. I believe that most MALES [although they usually keep it to themselves - having been immasculated over the years] believe that it is UNFAIR for a female to have unfettered access to all three rooms - given the fact that THEY do NOT. Some females - in defense of their belief - will say that they believe that males SHOULD have access to all three rooms. That certainly SOUNDS nice - but it's not realistic. And it's rarely something that society permits. The pendulum - at one time - swung unfairly in advantage of males. Given that - women certainly were justified when it came to correcting that injustice. But now the pendulum has swung the other way. And until woman accept and acknowledge that MEN have RIGHTS TOO - then they should stop trying to convince all of us [both males AND females] that it is 'equality' that they are fighting for. The fight is over. Now it's time for the pendulum to be allowed to settle somewhere near the center.
Do not mistake what I am saying as if I am in FAVOUR of both sexes having unfettered access to ALL THREE ROOMS - because that is NOT what I believe. Co-ed teams MIGHT be OK in SOME cases - but co-ed changing room will never be OK. [for the reasons I've already mentioned in my second message.
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
"It takes FAR MORE COURAGE to be KIND than it does to be CRUEL!!"
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- turtbub
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
Wow Craig. I COMPLETELY disagree. I think you have a really skewed vision of women today if you think that most women would want access to all three rooms. That's just ridiculous. Women would want to be able to go in the both sexes room and the female only room, plain and simple. The fact that there's a "male only" door is okay because there's also a "female only" door.
Perhaps SOME women would want to go in all three, but please don't say most. That's a generalization and something you really can't say. Sorry, that just really upset me.
The women you see in the news and the media and the court cases and such, they ARE a minority. A very loud minority I'll grant it , but a minority none the less. So please don't say that "most women" are like that. It's just not true.
Thanks. Hannah
Perhaps SOME women would want to go in all three, but please don't say most. That's a generalization and something you really can't say. Sorry, that just really upset me.
The women you see in the news and the media and the court cases and such, they ARE a minority. A very loud minority I'll grant it , but a minority none the less. So please don't say that "most women" are like that. It's just not true.
Thanks. Hannah
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
- CanadaCraig
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
Hi Hannah!!
I hope you're OK.
I say the following respectfully.
I think you're contradicting yourself. You said that you completely disagree that most women want access to all three rooms. [whether or not it's actually 'most' is questionable - I'll admit] But you ALSO said - and I quote - "I think that girls should be allowed to play on a "boy's" team and change in the same room, yes. But I don't even think there should be "boys" and "girls" teams. I think it should all be co-ed." Correct me if I'm wrong - but you don't even think that their should BE 'three rooms'. [at least based on that quote] Then you said [in your last message] that it's OK for there to BE 'male only' rooms.
I'm confused.
I posted the first message of this thread at several different sites. Not too surprisingly [to me - at least] the overwhelming majority of females favour co-ed teams AND changing rooms whereas the overwhelming majority of males do NOT. Most males find it offensive that a girl would even WANT to invade their space. [when it comes to changing rooms] When it comes to co-ed TEAMS - the number of males who are OK with that idea increases dramatically. [although it's still not the majority of males]
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
I hope you're OK.
I say the following respectfully.
I think you're contradicting yourself. You said that you completely disagree that most women want access to all three rooms. [whether or not it's actually 'most' is questionable - I'll admit] But you ALSO said - and I quote - "I think that girls should be allowed to play on a "boy's" team and change in the same room, yes. But I don't even think there should be "boys" and "girls" teams. I think it should all be co-ed." Correct me if I'm wrong - but you don't even think that their should BE 'three rooms'. [at least based on that quote] Then you said [in your last message] that it's OK for there to BE 'male only' rooms.
I'm confused.
I posted the first message of this thread at several different sites. Not too surprisingly [to me - at least] the overwhelming majority of females favour co-ed teams AND changing rooms whereas the overwhelming majority of males do NOT. Most males find it offensive that a girl would even WANT to invade their space. [when it comes to changing rooms] When it comes to co-ed TEAMS - the number of males who are OK with that idea increases dramatically. [although it's still not the majority of males]
GREAT BIG HUG
Craig!!
"It takes FAR MORE COURAGE to be KIND than it does to be CRUEL!!"
Be sure to LIKE my Love The Bully Facebook Page!
Please visit 'Cambilar'! It's where you'll find my eBooks!
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- turtbub
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
I think I phrased myself wrong. Yes, I think there should be co-ed sports teams. But the three doors aren't just referring to sports to me. They were referring to, just general LIFE. Sports and life are very different, obviously.
That's what I meant.
In general life there will be things just for men, things just for women, and things for both to enjoy equally and together.
That's what I meant.
That's what I meant.
In general life there will be things just for men, things just for women, and things for both to enjoy equally and together.
That's what I meant.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.
- Jaegermeister
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
I will agree that in response to the whole feminist movement thing, the pendulum has swung in favor of the ladies lately. For example.... a university around me offers 9 female varsity sports. 9. They have 4 male varsity sports. All because of the TitleIX bullshit. Don't get me wrong..... Title IX = good in theory, horribly executed. I think the feminist theory is a bit flawed. If women want equal rights then they should have them.... they should be drafted, they should they should stop expecting men to pay for them, open doors for them, pull out chairs for them, ect., as well as a number of other things that women don't have to do but men do (that I can't think of right now because I'm really hung over). I think Craig is being a little bit too radical, but I will say that I think the equality pendulum has swung in favor of the ladies over the last few decades.
I still stand by what I said earlier. If there is no girls for her to play on and she wants to play, then by all means let her play. I will say this until I am blue in the face, but in a team sport, gender is irrelevant. A person's first duty is to the sport, and working with their teammates, not to a personal bias for or against one person. That lessens the team.
tJ
I still stand by what I said earlier. If there is no girls for her to play on and she wants to play, then by all means let her play. I will say this until I am blue in the face, but in a team sport, gender is irrelevant. A person's first duty is to the sport, and working with their teammates, not to a personal bias for or against one person. That lessens the team.
tJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB
"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.
Suaviter et fortiter
Bunches of love Xena.
"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.
Suaviter et fortiter
Bunches of love Xena.
- LilyMaid
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
Craig, I have one question for you. This 'tremendous advantage' of which you speak, do you hold that it applies to women as a group? Or perhaps you are arguing only with reference to Western women?
Thank you.
Thank you.
- CanadaCraig
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Re: This Make Me Angry....
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