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Rose'nShannenRox
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Jesus

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:12 pm

Because I don't believe in the New Testament. I think Jesus' followers were wrong, and when Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah they radically shifted their conception of Messiah from political and military, as well as spiritual, redemption, to a purely spiritual one. Also they came up with the idea of the second coming to cover their bases further. Not to mention the fact that the New Testament advocates a radical change of the observance of G-d's commandments (that is to say, no longer observing most of them) and I feel that is inconsistent with what G-d previously said about His word being unchanging.



Basically my sig sums it up: that verse says that G-d is not a man or a son of a man (there goes the Trinity) and He doesn't change His mind (there goes the New Testament).



But we're getting off-topic. I suppose we can make a new thread about this if you'd like to discuss it further.



I base this on what IXogFog said in the 'heaven'

I dont see where he did not fufill the prophecies, Such as Isaiah 53 1:12



"1 Who has believed our message? To whom will the LORD reveal his saving power? 2My servant grew up in the LORD's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3He was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.

4Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.



7He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins--that he was suffering their punishment? 9He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave.



10But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands. 11When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 12I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners. "



Now tell me how that does not prophecy Jesus.



Also, think about this. There were a cople other dudes in Jesus Time, who claimed to be the Messiah, such as Magus(can't remember his first name), which is historically documented.

He had MANY followers, just like Jesus, who believed what he said was true....yet when he died...everyone was like 'eh, lets go home, back to our families'...but for Jesus, his followers lasted centuries!....now doesnt that ring a bell, somethings gotta be special about this guy.

I mean who in the world would die in the way he did for a lie?



As for that verse in numbers 23:19....if you read context around it, it clearly implies that God is not human, so he does not have human mind, so he doesnt lie and doesnt go back on what he said...yet Jesus was God, so i fail to see how that single verse excludes everything.

I know that you know about Hebrew history (weve had this discussion before lol), but as a pattern youll see is that the convanant in the OT was purly a contract for just the chosen people, it started off as just somethign they agreed on, nto exactly love yet.

The comming of Jesus extended his covanant to and Gentiles.



If you believe that Jesus was not real, how do you suppose we gain salvation?

Continue to sacrifice after we sin? thats what it took in the Ot times to be forgiven.

Does anyone go to heaven? Cause the gates were closed until Jesus came to break them open again...since he was the perfect sacrifice, cause we wll were sinners, and nothing, no works, no anythign we could do to be redeemed, so he sent his son, to be the perfect sacrifice, since he was human and divine. ( i know you will say the numbersverse disagrees, but ima leave that alone for now, i wann see what you have to say)



I'm not attacking what you believe, i am just trying to know where your belief system comes from, cause you never said you were a straight up Jew, but you jsut reject the old testament.

:)
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Jesus

Post by 309756 » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:31 pm


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Re: Jesus

Post by !XogFog » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:17 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@Sep 6 2005, 08:12 PM

Because I don't believe in the New Testament. I think Jesus' followers were wrong, and when Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah they radically shifted their conception of Messiah from political and military, as well as spiritual, redemption, to a purely spiritual one. Also they came up with the idea of the second coming to cover their bases further. Not to mention the fact that the New Testament advocates a radical change of the observance of G-d's commandments (that is to say, no longer observing most of them) and I feel that is inconsistent with what G-d previously said about His word being unchanging.



Basically my sig sums it up: that verse says that G-d is not a man or a son of a man (there goes the Trinity) and He doesn't change His mind (there goes the New Testament).



But we're getting off-topic. I suppose we can make a new thread about this if you'd like to discuss it further.



I base this on what IXogFog said in the 'heaven'

I dont see where he did not fufill the prophecies, Such as Isaiah 53 1:12



"1 Who has believed our message? To whom will the LORD reveal his saving power? 2My servant grew up in the LORD's presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3He was despised and rejected--a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care. 4Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.7He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins--that he was suffering their punishment? 9He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man's grave. 10 But it was the LORD's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the LORD's plan will prosper in his hands. 11When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 12I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners."



Now tell me how that does not prophecy Jesus.[/b]


Pandasandpenguins is correct; this verse refers to the nation of Israel.


Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Sep 6 2005, 08:12 PM--
[/right]

[/b]


I think you mean that I reject the New Testament :-) I understand you're just trying to understand my viewpoint, no worries.

I'm not Jewish, although I am working on an Orthodox conversion to become Jewish.



One more item for thought: Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:



And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.



Have these things come true yet? No? Then the Messiah has not come.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Jesus

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:07 pm

Ok, now i see where your comming from.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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