"new" And "old" Testaments

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"new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:11 pm

Originally posted by _ofunsoundmind@Sep 8 2005, 01:36 PM

The "Old" Testament does apply today... why would G-d create a set of rules, say that they are eternal, and then later change them? Also please be aware that almost all of the rules in the Hebrew Bible apply ONLY to Jews. For example, there is nothing wrong with a gentile eating pork, or working on the Sabbath (that's Saturday, by the way, not Sunday).

The Old Testament was the set of rules that people followed BEFORE the coming of Christ. That is how they gained salvation, because Jesus hadn't come yet. The New Testament was formed after Jesus, and that's why the N.T. applies to today, not the O.T.



x Shelle

[right][/right]

[/b]


G-d does not change His word. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does it say "by the way guys, I'll be throwing all this stuff away in a few hundred years." So what are you basing this claim of a "new" testament on?



Again, though, we should be discussing this in a different thread. I'll make one now.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by lyn4sho » Thu Sep 08, 2005 6:26 pm

I think the bible is a little out of date. In the old testament, it says somewhere that fathers can sell there daughters and such, and although some countries still do that, not many do. It kind of hard to apply the old testament to today, the only things that you can is the Ten Commandments. Also, in the new testament, we were forgiven for our sins, and given the Beattuides, which is basically the commandments.........I hope I made sense to someone, because I just confused myself :-P
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by _ofunsoundmind » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:05 pm

God has given different laws to different people at different times.



The Old Testament was a book written for the Israeli Nation at the time. The laws of the Old Testament were removed because they fulfilled their purpose. Throughout the O.T., God has told Israelis that this law would last "throughout their [Israeli's] generations."



And yes, God does take back His word sometimes. Consider the example of circumcision...Circumcision was a command given by God to Abraham and his decendants (Lev. 12:3). He now says this command no longer applies (1 Cor. 7:18-20; Gal. 5:1-8; Acts 15:1-29). I can provide more examples with scripture of God changing His word if you like, such as levitical priesthood, animal sacrifices, etc.



Hbr 8:13 In that He saith, a new covenant [the New Testament], He hath made the first [the Old Testament] old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.



If you are interested in more information, I will be glad to provide it. The bottom line is, we follow the New Testament today.



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 5a5 » Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:50 pm

i think it's out of date i mean come on, no rules can last for thousands of years, it's obvious people lived differently now that we do today
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:27 am

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:14 pm

Here's a really good article on "slavery" in Jewish law.



http://www.chabad.org/magazine/article.asp?AID=305551
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by _ofunsoundmind » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:53 pm

Oh, last time I checked, the people Israel are still around, so "their generations" are still going on.



All of your "points" are just reasons for me to not believe in the New Testament.
Sigh. Please don't sound so sure of your opinions when you haven't looking into the subject (at least I'm assuming you haven't, since you're not giving any support?).



The O.T. continued as long as Israel's special relationship to God continued, and they would end when that special relation ended. That special relationship ended when the gospel came into effect.



According to Gal. 5:1-6, those who follow the old law are entangled in a yoke of bondage. Christ profits them nothing and is of no effect to them. They are fallen from grace. (Not my words, all taken from the Bible).



Christ's last words were "It is finished." This is referring to the Old Testament prophesies being fulfilled, and the New Testament will go into effect.



You're not exactly presenting me with any evidence to suport your case here.



x Shelle
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weighing 7 pounds and 9 ounces



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:16 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Fri Sep 09, 2005 5:23 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:26 am

No wonder christianity is so messed up these days. Everyone believes something different and that's why non-christians are so confused. No one will ever get a straight answer unless they seek it out themselves.
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 309756 » Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:32 pm

Right, but at the same time every Christian denomination insists that they have all the answers.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:07 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 10 2005, 08:26 AM

No wonder christianity is so messed up these days. Everyone believes something different and that's why non-christians are so confused. No one will ever get a straight answer unless they seek it out themselves.

[right][/right]



Say what? Are you saying that _ofunsoundmind and I are from different Christian sects? Because I'm not Christian. I thought this had been established. Unless I'm the confused non-Christian. Which I am; I honestly haven't been able to get a logical response that I can understand, even if I still disagree with it, to this question from any source I've asked.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 309756 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:46 am

Right. !xogfog still has the philosophical upper hand.



He's not Christian, and I'm not mainstream Christian.



So, answer his question.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:50 am

Originally posted by !XogFog+Sep 11 2005, 01:07 AM--
[/right]

[/b]


Say what? Are you saying that _ofunsoundmind and I are from different Christian sects? Because I'm not Christian. I thought this had been established. Unless I'm the confused non-Christian. Which I am; I honestly haven't been able to get a logical response that I can understand, even if I still disagree with it, to this question from any source I've asked.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



I believe in the Old & New Testament. I don't believe in what _ofsoundmind says.



Don't expect me to explain her beliefs. If I did, I wouldn't answer to a demand. When it comes to religion, argument is futile.



Pandasandpenguins, if you're interested in this topic, you could try jumping in instead of hovering around. I noticed that you haven't posted until now, and still without an opinion of your own on the matter.
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:02 pm

Originally posted by A! Elbereth+Sep 11 2005, 08:50 AM--
[/right]

[/b]


Say what? Are you saying that _ofunsoundmind and I are from different Christian sects? Because I'm not Christian. I thought this had been established. Unless I'm the confused non-Christian. Which I am; I honestly haven't been able to get a logical response that I can understand, even if I still disagree with it, to this question from any source I've asked.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



I believe in the Old & New Testament. I don't believe in what _ofsoundmind says.



Don't expect me to explain her beliefs. If I did, I wouldn't answer to a demand. When it comes to religion, argument is futile.



Pandasandpenguins, if you're interested in this topic, you could try jumping in instead of hovering around. I noticed that you haven't posted until now, and still without an opinion of your own on the matter.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



So let's hear your answer to my question then, if you disagree with _ofunsoundmind.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by _ofunsoundmind » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:39 pm

I believe in the Old & New Testament. I don't believe in what _ofsoundmind says.

Um, that is a complete contradiction, seeing as everything I have said is taken directly from the Bible itself. I didn't just pull it out of my ass.



x Shelle
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:57 pm

You're scriptures are credible, I know. I just believe in both testaments and you don't. So I don't believe in the same thing you do.
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Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by _ofunsoundmind » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:27 pm

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 11 2005, 03:57 PM

You're scriptures are credible, I know. I just believe in both testaments and you don't. So I don't believe in the same thing you do.

[right][/right]

Actually, I do believe in both. But I only live by the New Testament.



x Shelle
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weighing 7 pounds and 9 ounces



^ Our gift from God ^



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:30 pm

Okay.



Well, !XogFog, what is there to answer?
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



But give me love over, love over, love over this... ~Coldplay



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 309756 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:59 pm

Well, let's keep it civil... I think !xogfog asked a very reasonable question:



"So what are you basing this claim of a "new" testament on?"



He's asking for a justification of the New Testament's addition to the canon. That is, he doesn't see the validity of it because he comes from a Jewish perspective.



Interesting, isn't it? I was just amused by the fact that every prophecy is used by a Trinitarian Christian to refer to the coming of Jesus, while the Jews are looking for a different Messiah and believe that the prophecies are about the nation of Israel. Now qualitifacions for Messiah-hood should be discussed in a different thread. :-P



Do I have an opinion, Elbereth? Yes, I guess I do. I think we should look at every book skeptically. Analyze what's wrong and cling to what's right. It's in 2nd Thessalonians:



"Test everything; believe in that which is true."



So what !Xogfog has asked here is an innocent question--he's asking Christians to justify their claim of the Messiah. Do I have an opinion on that?



Sure, I do. If you exclude the Gospel of John, and primarily look at Mark, Jesus is a prophet but not the Son. There's no virgin birth, no resurrection, and certainly no Holy Trinity. The evolution of the Synoptic Gospels from this account and The Gospel of John are all derivative of the original story, and what the sole claim of Christianity is that they have their one true savior, who cannot be anyone else's. I'm primarily attempting to probe the historicity of the accounts while posing a cognitive dilemma for answering, and I felt that it was necessary to tone down the bilious and rather vicious attacks made on some of the beliefs that !Xogfog and I hold in common.



Therefore, my theology stems from a system of service, works, and rational belief and inquiry. I guess that makes me incorrigbly damned. Oh well.

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