"new" And "old" Testaments

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 5a5 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:47 pm

im going to piss soo many people off but oh well , the new and old testaments are full of war, blood, conflict, sex, lies and tragedies , why wont anyone quote those parts?
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:38 am

Originally posted by 5a5@Sep 11 2005, 07:47 PM

im going to piss soo many people off but oh well , the new and old testaments are full of war, blood, conflict, sex, lies and tragedies , why wont anyone quote those parts?

[right][/right]



Because they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. They're mostly historical parts, and so don't come up in debates.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:43 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 11 2005, 02:30 PM

Okay.



Well, !XogFog, what is there to answer?

[right][/right]



You honestly feel the question in my original post has been answered?



"G-d does not change His word. Nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does it say "by the way guys, I'll be throwing all this stuff away in a few hundred years." So what are you basing this claim of a "new" testament on?"



I've put forth a few passages in this thread that, to me, show that anyone who claims to be a prophet or anything like that, yet advocates a changing of the Law, or worship of anyone other than G-d, must be false. I have yet to see any evidence or any logic to the contrary.



Now please stop being to hostile to both me and the other posters and either put forth a logical case for your beliefs or stop criticizing the others here. Besides, I'd think you'd all be jumping at the chance to show me the beauty and love of your religion and win me over, instead of all this petty bickering.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 309756 » Mon Sep 12, 2005 1:47 am

^

|

|



I always enjoy these discussions.



I think the war, sex, love, death thing is relevant only if you're discussing whterh God's people are moral,e tc, or determining values in a Judeo-Christian standard.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:36 pm

I never enjoy these discussions, LOL. But I dug myself in a little deeper and things need to be clarified.



!XogFog, your question doesn't even apply to me. I agree that God does not change his word. Both Testaments apply because I know God, and I know what he wants and doesn't want of me. It's true there are TONS of cultural mentionings in the Old Testament that don't apply today. But that doesn't mean we should also ignore all the important things written about GOD and our salvation and also the stories of faith.



It's not my problem if faith isn't a good enough answer for someone else. It's good enough for me and God and that's all that matters to me. It's quite grand, actually. ;)
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:02 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 12 2005, 08:36 PM

I never enjoy these discussions, LOL. But I dug myself in a little deeper and things need to be clarified.



!XogFog, your question doesn't even apply to me. I agree that God does not change his word. Both Testaments apply because I know God, and I know what he wants and doesn't want of me. It's true there are TONS of cultural mentionings in the Old Testament that don't apply today. But that doesn't mean we should also ignore all the important things written about GOD and our salvation and also the stories of faith.



It's not my problem if faith isn't a good enough answer for someone else. It's good enough for me and God and that's all that matters to me. It's quite grand, actually. ;)

[right][/right]



You must admit that there are many practices fundamental to Judaism expressed in the "Old" Testament that are not practiced by Christians and are in places strongly discouraged in the Christian Bible. One excellent example is circumcision: one of the first things commanded to Abraham to do, yet Paul (I believe) rails against it. Certainly the number of Christians keeping kosher, fasting on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), observing Passover, Shavuot (The Festival of Weeks), and Succot (The Festival of Booths or Tabernacles), et cetera, is a small one. So, someone along the line according to Christian belief, what G-d wants done changed. This says to me that somehow the "Old" Testament, or at least parts of it, no longer apply according to Christianity. If this is an incorrect assessment, please correct it. Otherwise, I don't see how you can say how more than half of the stuff in your Bible no longer applies and say it's not a change.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Tue Sep 13, 2005 12:10 am

Er, the sentence "So, someone along the line according to Christian belief, what G-d wants done changed." should read: "So, somewhere along the line according to Christian belief, what G-d wants done changed."
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:02 am

It hasn't changed. Does it really matter that much if we don't practice things like 'sacrifices' now (lambs)? It doesn't mean anything at all. If it does apply today, does it matter if we don't do those practices? No, I don't think so. I don't think God is too concerned about it, and neither am I.
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 309756 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:27 am

Well, I think !Xogfog's question was more theological in nature.



But I'm glad you're happy with your faith. It's been a long time since I was happy with anything I believed in.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Tue Sep 13, 2005 1:32 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 12 2005, 10:02 PM

It hasn't changed. Does it really matter that much if we don't practice things like 'sacrifices' now (lambs)? It doesn't mean anything at all. If it does apply today, does it matter if we don't do those practices? No, I don't think so. I don't think God is too concerned about it, and neither am I.

[right][/right]



If it doesn't matter why did G-d command it in the first place?
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:56 pm

It depends on what you are talking about. Not everything mentioned in the bible is a command.
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 5a5 » Tue Sep 13, 2005 11:12 pm

Originally posted by !XogFog+Sep 11 2005, 10:38 PM--
[/right]

[/b]


Because they are irrelevant to the discussion at hand. They're mostly historical parts, and so don't come up in debates.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



actually i think those parts are very relevant and show how people who were supposed to be very religious behaved and lived and used religion as an excuse for their actions, if anything that part of the old and new testaments still applies to our times
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:29 pm

That's a good point, but we're talking about whether the laws of the old testmant apply now, not if the actions of the people in the old testament relate to the present.
Your soul.

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Keep it Purified.



But give me love over, love over, love over this... ~Coldplay



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 5a5 » Wed Sep 14, 2005 9:26 pm

well yea but people were supposed to be following those laws back then too and my point is they didnt, so how can u expect people to follow them now
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:11 pm

Well it's not about if we really follow them or not, just whether or not God wants us to... like sacrifices. I think those in the New Testament are mainly symbolic. All of us must make sacrifices for God. But that doesn't mean it has to be a lamb like they did then. It could be an idol, a temptation or going to church instead of a music concert with your friends.
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



But give me love over, love over, love over this... ~Coldplay



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Dr. Wilson:
I forgot I needed a reason to give a crap.

Dr. House: You're actually giving two craps.

Dr. Wilson: The metric system always confused me.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:36 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 13 2005, 02:56 PM

It depends on what you are talking about. Not everything mentioned in the bible is a command.

[right][/right]



How is "observe this holiday" or "don't eat this animal" or "bring this sacrifice" not a command?
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Thu Sep 15, 2005 2:50 am

Originally posted by !XogFog+Sep 14 2005, 11:36 PM--
[/right]

[/b]


How is "observe this holiday" or "don't eat this animal" or "bring this sacrifice" not a command?

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Just in case you ask for some scripture...



Leviticus 23:33 And the L-RD spoke unto Moses, saying: 34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying: On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the L-RD. 35 On the first day shall be a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. 36 Seven days ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD; on the eighth day shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD; it is a day of solemn assembly; ye shall do no manner of servile work. 37 These are the appointed seasons of the L-RD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD, a burnt-offering, and a meal-offering, a sacrifice, and drink-offerings, each on its own day; 38 beside the sabbaths of the L-RD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill-offerings, which ye give unto the L-RD. 39 Howbeit on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruits of the land, ye shall keep the feast of the L-RD seven days; on the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest. 40 And ye shall take you on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook, and ye shall rejoice before the L-RD your G-d seven days. 41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the L-RD seven days in the year; it is a statute for ever in your generations; ye shall keep it in the seventh month. 42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are home-born in Israel shall dwell in booths; 43 that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. 44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the appointed seasons of the LORD.



Let me know if you want more.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by 5a5 » Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:43 pm

^ in general people dont like to follow commands, it's better when they're asked to do something , given a choice but not commanded, kinda proves my point
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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by A! Elbereth » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:03 pm

Originally posted by !XogFog@Sep 15 2005, 01:50 AM



Just in case you ask for some scripture...



Leviticus 23:33 And the L-RD spoke unto Moses, saying: 34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying: On the fifteenth day of this seventh month is the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the L-RD. 35 On the first day shall be a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. 36 Seven days ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD; on the eighth day shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD; it is a day of solemn assembly; ye shall do no manner of servile work. 37 These are the appointed seasons of the L-RD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to bring an offering made by fire unto the L-RD, a burnt-offering, and a meal-offering, a sacrifice, and drink-offerings, each on its own day; 38 beside the sabbaths of the L-RD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill-offerings, which ye give unto the L-RD. 39 Howbeit on the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruits of the land, ye shall keep the feast of the L-RD seven days; on the first day shall be a solemn rest, and on the eighth day shall be a solemn rest. 40 And ye shall take you on the first day the fruit of goodly trees, branches of palm-trees, and boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook, and ye shall rejoice before the L-RD your G-d seven days. 41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the L-RD seven days in the year; it is a statute for ever in your generations; ye shall keep it in the seventh month. 42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are home-born in Israel shall dwell in booths; 43 that your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. 44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the appointed seasons of the LORD.



Let me know if you want more.

[right][/right]



Those are actually traditions of the Jews, not a commandment that applies to all of mankind. It is directed to Isrealites and isn't meant to be read as if God is speaking to us. That is part of the story of Moses and his people.
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



But give me love over, love over, love over this... ~Coldplay



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Dr. Wilson:
I forgot I needed a reason to give a crap.

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Dr. Wilson: The metric system always confused me.

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Re: "new" And "old" Testaments

Post by !XogFog » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:48 pm

Originally posted by A! Elbereth+Sep 15 2005, 07:03 PM--
[/right]

[/b]


Those are actually traditions of the Jews, not a commandment that applies to all of mankind. It is directed to Isrealites and isn't meant to be read as if God is speaking to us. That is part of the story of Moses and his people.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



For someone who professes to take every word of both testaments literally, I'm shocked to hear you say that. Isn't the literal interpretation of "observe this" or "don't eat that" that it's a commandment?



And so even if they aren't commands to everyone, just to the Israelites, i.e. the Jews (which is actually what I feel, and what the text says), why should Jews today still be observing these things? It does say "in all your generations, forever."
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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