Heaven?

[!XogFog]

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 6 2005, 05:29 PM

Yes, I'm wondering the same thing...



Oh I see now. You only believe in the Old Testament, is that it? Why is that?

[right][/right]

Because I don't believe in the New Testament. I think Jesus' followers were wrong, and when Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah they radically shifted their conception of Messiah from political and military, as well as spiritual, redemption, to a purely spiritual one. Also they came up with the idea of the second coming to cover their bases further. Not to mention the fact that the New Testament advocates a radical change of the observance of G-d's commandments (that is to say, no longer observing most of them) and I feel that is inconsistent with what G-d previously said about His word being unchanging.



Basically my sig sums it up: that verse says that G-d is not a man or a son of a man (there goes the Trinity) and He doesn't change His mind (there goes the New Testament).



But we're getting off-topic. I suppose we can make a new thread about this if you'd like to discuss it further.

[_ofunsoundmind]

Does that mean that aborted babies and young children who never had the chance to choose jesus dont go to heaven?

Nope, infants and those who have never been introduced to Jesus cannot cognitively understand their sinful condition, and God would not hold them responsible. But if you don't buy into that, then consider the fact that God is entirely all-knowing - He would know who would accept him and who wouldn't, have they had the chance to be introduced to Christ.

Because I don't believe in the New Testament. I think Jesus' followers were wrong, and when Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah they radically shifted their conception of Messiah from political and military, as well as spiritual, redemption, to a purely spiritual one. Also they came up with the idea of the second coming to cover their bases further. Not to mention the fact that the New Testament advocates a radical change of the observance of G-d's commandments (that is to say, no longer observing most of them) and I feel that is inconsistent with what G-d previously said about His word being unchanging.

Then, xogfog, if you are true to your explanation, I take that to mean that you must accept selling your daughter into slavery? Or having no contact with a woman during her period? Or that anyone who works on a Sunday must be put to death? And you must not plant two different crops in the same field, right?

This all applies to the Old Testament. The Old Testament does NOT apply to today...that is why Jesus came and brought into creation the New Testament, which we now live by. If you're saying you only believe in the O.T., then you must be saying you believe in all that...becasue why would you only pick out parts of the O.T. to follow? I'm sorry, but you're not making sense, and you're contradicting yourself.



x Shelle

[309756]

Alternative methods of salvation:



I Peter 2:11 "Therefore follow in the EXAMPLE of Christ Jesus, who displayed his love for God by undying obedience."

II Thess. 5:21 "Prove all things; cling to that which is right."

Matthew 25:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.



34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'



37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'



40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'



41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'



44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'



45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'



46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



Salvation, therefore, is secured through service, rather than through theological beliefs.



Just goes to show that the Bible is indeed full of gray areas.



I don't think it's fair to say that the Old Testament is entirely invalid. For example, we have the religious right's condemnation of homosexuals, which is entirely unjustified in the New Tesetament, only in the old.



The Old Testament, in those same verses, also argues that the gleanings of the field should be left for the poor, and for egalitarian treatment of foreigners. These are entirely moral perogatives that only appear in the Old Testament.



Furthermore, think about this:



If the Christian God (either a Unity or a trinity) exists, why would he condemn people to hell before they are born? The faith traditions that A! Elbereth and _ofunsoundmind both belong to are theologically conservative Protestant movements, meaning that they believe in predestination.



Furthermore, the emotional content and message of these traditions by nature makes their heaven exclusive.



As a Unitarian Universalist Christian, I believe in the Unity of a loving, forgiving God who punishes only justly--that is, for the actual sins that we have committed, rather than some obscure theological dilemma. I believe in universal restoration of every soul with God--each person coming to know their sins and repenting. Thus, it's a forgiving but rational system that makes sense.



So... !xogfog, don't take these criticisms too harshly. It's entirely unfair to malign the Old Testament. I find it inspiring myself.



*hugs for the nontrinitarians in the forum*

[Rose'nShannenRox]

Salvation, therefore, is secured through service, rather than through theological beliefs.

I believe, as it says in the bible, that it is not by works, that it is by faith.

As im sure you know, the greatest commandment is Love your neighbor as yourself...that doesnt just mean 'hey i love you even though you are homeless', its showing love and compassion for those who are not as fortunate. Just as Jesus did...he hung out with the lepers, he chilled with the greatest of sinners in those times...he showed them love and compassion of the father.

If the Christian God (either a Unity or a trinity) exists, why would he condemn people to hell before they are born? The faith traditions that A! Elbereth and _ofunsoundmind both belong to are theologically conservative Protestant movements, meaning that they believe in predestination.

The predestination concept:

yet Different doctrine of predestination have been formed.

1.doctrine holds that God singled out the saved because he foresaw their future works.



Got knows all, and he probably knows who is going to turn to him and who isnt, but he doesnt single them out, he gives everyone free will...he can't be like 'your supposed to be saved, so dont do that!' he himself said he gave us that choice for a reason.



2.from eternity God has determined the saved and the damned, regardless of their merit or lack thereof. (Calvin)



I believe this is very untrue, cause god made us to have a relationship with him, and its our choice...and going by this means basicly your already damned so it doens matter what you do, cause God already decided your fate....basicly says we haven othing to live for.



This is just my take on that.

As a Unitarian Universalist Christian, I believe in the Unity of a loving, forgiving God who punishes only justly--that is, for the actual sins that we have committed, rather than some obscure theological dilemma. I believe in universal restoration of every soul with God--each person coming to know their sins and repenting. Thus, it's a forgiving but rational system that makes sense.

Hey, thats your belief, and i respect that...but question.

If thats true, then what was the purpose of the Adam and Eve story? it was written to show how sin came into the world...im sure you know the story and how from then on we are all born with sin...but that what Jesus came for...to free us from that...so that we can ahve eternal life. Thats what teh bible says.

this is just what i believe...not trying to bash or prove your belief wrong.



well its late chickadees so i will talk mroe about this 2morrow....got to get sleep for school

[silvertears]

[silvertears]

[LilyMaid]

Originally posted by silvertears+Sep 7 2005, 03:20 PM--

[/right]

[/b]

It says it plainly in the bible that if someone believes in their heart that he is Jesus Christ and accepts him into their heart that they shall be saved..

Its as simple as that, Gods children (those who are saved in this case) will be the ones in heaven.. No getting around that... God is a never changing God.. He is the same today as he was right after Jesus died for our sins.. (I said that because before Jesus, people gave sacrifices in exchange of their sins)

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Remember, silvertears, that I am writing from a non-Christian perspective. My concept of a loving and omniscient God is not derived from any holy book. What is said 'plainly' in the Bible does not affect the beliefs that I hold.



Take care,



Fiona.

[_ofunsoundmind]

Alternative methods of salvation

Honey, all of what you listed are simply how you should live your life according to God. No where in the Bible does it say that those actions are what determines your salvation...They do not have anything to do with salvation, only living as Christ-like of a life as possible.



x Shelle

[FranklinF]

But what would be the guidelines for being judged "Good Enough" to get into heavan?

[_ofunsoundmind]

Originally posted by LostMySanity@Sep 7 2005, 01:32 PM

But what would be the guidelines for being judged "Good Enough" to get into heavan?

[right][/right]

There are none. No one is deserving of Heaven, because we are all sinners. That's where Jesus comes in.



x Shelle

[Rose'nShannenRox]

Originally posted by LilyMaid@Sep 7 2005, 12:32 AM

Remember, silvertears, that I am writing from a non-Christian perspective. My concept of a loving and omniscient God is not derived from any holy book. What is said 'plainly' in the Bible does not affect the beliefs that I hold.



Take care,



Fiona.

[right][/right]

Then where do they come from?

[yoaliens3000]

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Sep 6 2005, 07:56 PM--

[/right]

[/b]

well in the bible...i dont knwo the specific verse off top of my head, but something that mentions when they rach the age of a accountability, probably when they realize right from wrong, then they can be held accountable otehrwise...but since im not God, i don't know where they go....but since God is just, i dont see why he wouldnt let them into heaven....but hey, again, im not him

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

Guess where thats where I go wrong. I dont look at the bible for religious proof. Ive always been taught that anyone want can make what their religion means to them. I dont think God is one of rules and qualifications. I believe its more simple then that. I think he will judge us on how we treated ourselves and other people.

[_ofunsoundmind]

I think he will judge us on how we treated ourselves and other people.

In that case we're all doomed, because all humans are sinners.



x Shelle

[BittersweetSurrender]

i think (pretty sure now, but then again i was pretty sure about wicca anyway...) that all this crap about sinning is just that- crap. if you i dunno... for instance, lift a pack of starburst from the store, yet you volunteer at a shelter or something, you're still a good person, even if you did rip the store off a buck or two. Or if you are envious of your friend for having a car when you don't, it seems totally ridiculous to go to "hell" just because of that one thing. This is my favorite example: Carol was one of the best people I knew- she put everyone else before herself, no exceptions, but she killed herself. According to Christianity, she's headed for hell, but it would be impossible for her to go there... she was just too good of a person. but yeah... that's just me.

[!XogFog]

Originally posted by _ofunsoundmind@Sep 6 2005, 07:19 PM

Because I don't believe in the New Testament. I think Jesus' followers were wrong, and when Jesus failed to fulfill the prophecies about the Messiah they radically shifted their conception of Messiah from political and military, as well as spiritual, redemption, to a purely spiritual one. Also they came up with the idea of the second coming to cover their bases further. Not to mention the fact that the New Testament advocates a radical change of the observance of G-d's commandments (that is to say, no longer observing most of them) and I feel that is inconsistent with what G-d previously said about His word being unchanging.

Then, xogfog, if you are true to your explanation, I take that to mean that you must accept selling your daughter into slavery? Or having no contact with a woman during her period? Or that anyone who works on a Sunday must be put to death? And you must not plant two different crops in the same field, right?

This all applies to the Old Testament. The Old Testament does NOT apply to today...that is why Jesus came and brought into creation the New Testament, which we now live by. If you're saying you only believe in the O.T., then you must be saying you believe in all that...becasue why would you only pick out parts of the O.T. to follow? I'm sorry, but you're not making sense, and you're contradicting yourself.



x Shelle

[right][/right]

[/b]

The "Old" Testament does apply today... why would G-d create a set of rules, say that they are eternal, and then later change them? Also please be aware that almost all of the rules in the Hebrew Bible apply ONLY to Jews. For example, there is nothing wrong with a gentile eating pork, or working on the Sabbath (that's Saturday, by the way, not Sunday).



But yes, I do believe that Jews should not work on the Sabbath, and spouses should refrain from physical contact during a woman's period. As for selling a daughter into slavery, it's not so much "slavery" as a type of servitude. Hebrew slaves in Judaism are treated very well: "The person who is so destitute that he has to "sell" his daughter is a truly pathetic character. She goes free at the age of twelve if the owner doesn't fulfill his obligation of marrying her off to his son, which is his primary responsibility. Even then the term translated as slavery would be better translated as foster care. The Talmud says anyone who buys a slave buys a master for himself. If you have one pillow the slave gets it. The slave may not be given any demeaning work to do. There are many similar laws. Considering the way children in poverty are treated in many industrial countries, not to mention third world countries, this was probably paradise by comparison." (http://www.kehillastorah.org/mishpatim5761.html)



I'm not picking and choosing.

[Rose'nShannenRox]

Guess where thats where I go wrong. I dont look at the bible for religious proof. Ive always been taught that anyone want can make what their religion means to them. I dont think God is one of rules and qualifications. I believe its more simple then that. I think he will judge us on how we treated ourselves and other people.

so you're saying that i will go to hell? cause ive treated people like crap, especially myself...



I don't believe God is full of rules or qualifications either. He has guidelines...you know whhy? cause he has something much better for us...his perfect love and compassion and mercy( even thought he gives it freely when we dont deserve it, none of us do).

He is not of this earth, but much greater, things of this earth can't satisfy us...ive tried, but until i realized that no one can fill that hole, that void...and i am so regretful it took me so long to find it out.

I believe that nothing i can do can change what ive done, but ive been forgiven...and started a new, and of course ima slip up billions of times, but once we ask for forgiveness...just like that, God has erased it, and you are forgiven.

none the less...im positive where im going, and i know where i stand, and i can't wait for that day.

Cause im not going to live in hell, and die and go to hell.

[yoaliens3000]

Originally posted by _ofunsoundmind@Sep 7 2005, 05:34 PM

I think he will judge us on how we treated ourselves and other people.

In that case we're all doomed, because all humans are sinners.



x Shelle

[right][/right]

[/b]

God doesnt expect prefection.

[!XogFog]

Originally posted by _ofunsoundmind@Sep 7 2005, 02:34 PM

I think he will judge us on how we treated ourselves and other people.

In that case we're all doomed, because all humans are sinners.



x Shelle

[right][/right]

[/b]

Whew, it's a good thing G-d is Merciful then, huh?

[Rose'nShannenRox]

Originally posted by yoaliens3000+Sep 7 2005, 05:34 PM--

[/right]

[/b]

God doesnt expect prefection.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

He doesnt expect because he knows were not...i mean he only made us

[SirPostAlot]

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@Sep 7 2005, 06:38 PM

He doesnt expect because he knows were not...i mean he only made us

[right][/right]

technically our parents made us...god didn't impregnate our moms through his will...our fathers semen is what is what created us...



~Jeff~