Praying And Free Will

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She
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Praying And Free Will

Post by She » Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:18 am

I've heard people say, "My prayers are answered! God listens to me and answers me!" Well, I'm curious, because... let's say I was upset because a couple of kids kept making fun of me on the bus. So I prayed: "Please God, help those kids to realize the error of their ways and stop tormenting me on the bus." Now, if God answers this prayer and helps me out, he's interfering with their lives, their choices, and their feelings, is he not? So they don't have complete free will. They, and anyone else as it follows, could be a puppet of God. But we're told that's not how it works.



In any case, it makes me uneasy to know that some greater being, no matter how ellegedly benevolent, could supposedly screw with my head or anything else about me.



Thoughts on this?
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

--Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by She » Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:52 pm

How are you interfering with their free will by asking them to move? They could not move and ignore you or turn around and punch you in the face, if they felt like it. They can do whatever they want with the situation presented to them.
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

--Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Dots » Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:05 pm

There is an influence of civil duty...



I hate to bring it up, but like that movie XXX...You could walk around pissing if you want, but then the world would be TOO anarchaic...

-------

God doesn't answer people like that...or very rarely...b/c I know he doesn't for me...lol...



If the kids stop making fun of, it's just by chance.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by itsme » Sun Feb 02, 2003 9:07 pm

PICTURES.

"Picture the scene, where whatever you thought, would in the blink of an eye manifest and become illustrated. You'd be sure man that every line drawn reflected a life that you loved not an existence that you hated."- incubus

"I'm Sick of Painting in Black and White. My Pen is dry, now I'm uptight. So sick of limiting myself to fit your definition. Redefine."- incubus

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:02 pm

Prayer rarely works in such overt ways. So let's go with the kids picking on me on the bus. I pray for the kids to stop picking on me. Next day, I get on the bus, and the football stud's car has happened to break down. He and I aren't really friends, but we live in the same neighborhood and we have talked a bit before (our parents are friends). So the big football player gets on the bus, and sees the kids picking on me. He threatens to beat them up if they don't stop. He tells me later if they don't stop he will beat them up. They don't stop. So I tell him. He then beats them up. After this guy's fist has connected with their face, they realize the error of their ways and stop picking on me.



Granted, that scenario is unlikely to happen, but my overall point is that God may not answer your prayers directly like some people think he will. Instead, he answered my prayer by causing the football stud's car to break down, thus causing the kids to stop picking on me. Granted, if I really were in that situation, it would be my fist connecting with their faces, not someone else's... but God works in mysterious ways. You have to have a fairly mystical stance on prayer to really see how it could be answered.



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by FiZzBaW » Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:45 pm

weeds example of GOD answering prayers is quite acurate.



I would venture to say that the way GOD answers prayers is not directly. GOD will not interven it humans lives directly. Lets take the school bus senario again. I pray that they will stop picking on me. One thing that GOD could do, is give me the strength to be assertive and stand up for myself to the kids and then they would prolly stop picking on me. Another way is that GOD allows the kids to realize what they are doing is wrong, through lets say a movie they see or something that happens to them.



GOD works through people, he doesnt stick his arm (if he has one) down to earth and spank you, He simply teaches lessons through others who are willing.



This may be a hard thing to grasp, but if you don't get it, please let me know as i would be Overjoyed to explian more deeply.



-GOD BLESS-



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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Sky » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:08 am

im not really sure how 2 answer this...

but maybe u should have a sort of different prayer like...

"dear god please help these kids, I have no idea what they are going through in their life right now that is making them make fun of ppl but i pray 4 them" or somthing like that
<span style=\'font-family:Times\'Something told the wild geese

It was tine to go

Through the fields lay golden

Something wispered- "SNOW"

Leaves were green and stirring

Berries,luster-glossed

But beneath the warm feathers

Something cautioned- "FROST"

All the sagging orchards

Steamed With amber spice

But each wild breast stiffened

At rembered ice

Something told the wild geese

It was time to fly-

Summer sun was on their wings

Winter in their cry

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:34 am

Helen I know I'm never going to convince you ;) But for the sake of the argument... Like I said, you have to have a fairly mystical standpoint to truly understand how prayer can work. It works in esoteric ways (I love the word esoteric :) ). But while you may think the car could have broken down of him not taking care of his car properly, the flip side of the coin is "Would the car still have broken down at the same time had I not prayed?" You know? That's where the mysticism comes in. I am a fairly mystic person, and I would be willing to accept the idea that quite possibly his car wouldn't have broken down at the time it did had I not prayed as a possibility.



As for God killing you off, I don't think you need to worry about being struck by a lightning bolt anytime soon. ;)



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:31 pm

I could actually explain my belief in God fairly easily, even though I am a mystic. But alas, we are talking about prayer :)



Nope, prayer won't keep a bus from driving off. A well placed broken bottle will though!



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by She » Mon Feb 03, 2003 8:59 pm

Yeah, but how do you (or God, rather) know the car didn't break down and the stud called his friend and his friend picked him up and God just screwed over some guy's car for nothing?
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

--Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:20 pm

The thing people have to remember about prayer is that just like in life, sometimes the answer is no. No offense, but I'm getting the feeling from people who don't believe in prayer would expect a prayer to work instantaneously. It doesn't work like that.



She, I'm saying that is one possible way a prayer could be answered. Another possible way could be that the bus driver kicks those kids off the bus. There are a million different ways. Please don't keep up with the "What ifs". People who constantly ask "What if" or "But how do you know..." just irk me.



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by She » Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:25 pm

All I'm saying is, God must somehow be interfering with some line of thought to make it work out for those involved. I was a Christian, still might be someday, so I understand prayer's not instantaneous and all. But still. I was providing a rebuttal for your argument, not just blindly "what-if"ing.
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

--Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:01 pm

Ok, I understand now. Sorry I kind of bitched you out earlier. I'm just not in a very good mood right now. My cold shows no signs of wanting to go away, no matter what I do :unsure: , and I'm very stressed because I feel like shit and I cannot afford to take any time off because I have so much work to do! Sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest.



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Nj » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:49 pm

I think if you pray to god and ask him/her to make Jane Doe stop punching you, God won't be stopping Jane Doe directly, he/she will be influencing/helping you to correct the situation yourself.



Most people will argue that Jane Doe was stopped by god, but if you look in detail, when you pray for something you want, your subconscious/mindset changes. In the bottom of my mind i'm thinking higher now that "god" will help me, so my demeanor is different towards Jane and i'm thinking she won't hit me. That right there will be picked up, the confidence and or signal from you by Jane Doe,and she will be highly un-nerved. The best words for this is that a dog can smell fear. That is how god answers your prayer.



So really its you who answers your prayers.



Go ahead, disagree, it will prove that your very closed minded, because I know some really good Christian people that will agree with me.



And no, i'm not adverse to the idea of praying to make John Doe win his fight against cancer, I think that if the Christian god is real that is where he/she has their priorities in the prayer department.
--nj




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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Nj » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:51 pm

another term that comes to mind is, "God helps those who help themselves."





wow, I'm starting to sound like I believe.
--nj




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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Tue Feb 04, 2003 2:10 am

I will agree with you Resist. Like I said somewhere earlier in my post, I would connect my fist with their face (well probably not right away, but the point was I would stick up for myself). But anyways, to the point. Yes, you do influence the change. Pagan beliefs in prayer also fall along those lines. A spell can be defined as a prayer, and you are affecting (or is it effecting? :unsure: ) the world around you with your spell/prayer, even if you are not praying to a diety to intervene.



At the same time (we will assume God answers the prayer with "Yes I'll help you stop this person from hitting you") God will only give you what you need to stop this person from hitting you. This assurance you are talking about could be God's answer to your prayer. My beliefs in (personal) prayer are that you pray for something, and if God answers yes, he will give you the means to attain what you have prayed for. It's then up to you (along with the guidance God has provided) to get what you prayed for. So I guess I am agreeing with you more now :)



Yes, God does help those who help themselves.



I guess the only point in where I differ with you is that I will be willing to believe that God creates that change in mindset. I mean, after all, I have prayed for a Jaguar, and I have yet to recieve one, so I guess I have not answered my own prayer.



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by She » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:40 pm

Originally posted by resistfromnormal@Feb 4 2003, 03:49 AM

Go ahead, disagree, it will prove that your very closed minded, because I know some really good Christian people that will agree with me.


I don't disagree, I do think your point is valid. But I don't see how I'd be closed minded if I said, "I see what you're saying BUT I think God does it like this..." I think that's better than, "Well, if other Christians agree with you that must be right. You must be correct!" Those Christians could just be morons, for all I know. ;)
"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die, time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

--Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Sky » Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:15 pm

i hate it when u pplz start argueing & getting off topic its not fair 4 the poster...

god answers my prayers some ways ... I dont like or i dont want 2 happen but he will answer them some how :)
<span style=\'font-family:Times\'Something told the wild geese

It was tine to go

Through the fields lay golden

Something wispered- "SNOW"

Leaves were green and stirring

Berries,luster-glossed

But beneath the warm feathers

Something cautioned- "FROST"

All the sagging orchards

Steamed With amber spice

But each wild breast stiffened

At rembered ice

Something told the wild geese

It was time to fly-

Summer sun was on their wings

Winter in their cry

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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Nj » Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:37 pm

keep it to yourself, this has been a good thread and I won't let you harn it.
--nj




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Re: Praying And Free Will

Post by Jaegermeister » Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:05 pm

You go Resist! (I agree with you whole heartedly!)



TJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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