Abortions

[SirPostAlot]

Its not done at birth.

They do like a caesarian and kill the fetus w/ acid (IF the fetus doesn't die from natural as in being in the oxygen w/o the mothers support). But acid is the last decision.



~Jeff~

[wagon_wheel]

Originally posted by Shwynsh+Nov 13 2004, 03:55 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (Shwynsh @ Nov 13 2004, 03:55 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'<!--QuoteBegin-wagon_wheel@Nov 12 2004, 05:23 PM

I don't feel like expressing my opinion b/c this is such a complicated idea that...I have SO many opinions depending the situations and it would just never end.

Anyways I have read that you can have an abortion as late as 8 months or at delivery (I'm still VERY confused about this) on a few websites and in some books. What do people think about this? Mainly the people who are for abortions...do you agree with it being done during the? delivery...

NOO...



Wow no, doing it at delivery is just sick.



I don't agree with that at all. THEN it would be murder if a kid came popped out and is killed?[/b][/quote]

I'll look for more info. but I'm pretty sure the kid isn't actually out yet but still inside...its just that the mother has gone into labour.

[wagon_wheel]

Originally posted by ~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 13 2004, 09:03 PM

Its not done at birth.

They do like a caesarian and kill the fetus w/ acid (IF the fetus doesn't die from natural as in being in the oxygen w/o the mothers support). But acid is the last decision.



~Jeff~

Its done with the babies head still in the mother and they suck the brains out or something with a vaccum like object...its called partial birth abortion or something like that. Its not legal in all states, actually I htink like only 15 of them or something and I don't even know if its legal in Canada or any other countries..although it probably is somewhere...

[A! Elbereth]

Partial abortion was made completely illegal a few months ago, actually. Thank God it was. *shudders*

[SirPostAlot]

Paritan birth aboritons sound "morally wrong" but you have to realize that doctors know what they are doing and it should no matter what be the mother and father of it to decide if they want to keep it or have an abortion no matter how gruesome it sounds...



~Jeff~

[pynkgodde55]

It should matter though. It really should. Who's to say that they have ability to decide life or death? There's this article I read in a magazine that really touched me. This couple was discussing the option of adopting. One guy was for it but the other wasn't. One day, the guy who was for a baby, took the subway to meet his partner. As he was leaving the terminal he saw a baby doll wrapped in a blanket in a corner. It tugged on his heart b/c he thought a lil girl had lost it. Long story short, he was abandoned and now this couple has a beautiful son. His name is Kevin and he's alive. Now, that woman left him to die but he was found. It was fate. If she'd have aborted him, who's to say what would've happened to papi and daddy?

[Nympheas]

Surely if you ban abortion the suicide rate is going to go up? Especially among teens, who are ashamed about what they have done/afraid of others' reactions or are just scared they can't handle it.



There's no point just outrightly banning it at all. You have to tackle the root of the problem and make sure people are better educated and don't become accidently pregnant in the first place, or is birth control immoral as well? Where do you draw the line when it comes to creating life???

[pynkgodde55]

Well, what I was going to post doesn't seem to fit here.



Actually, I've always maintained the sex education needs a bit revamping. Instead of teaching solely abstinence we must teach safety. We need to tell girls about the risks associate with sex. We need condoms and birth control to be familiar terms in the sex ed classroom. By banning abortions we'd be saying that although society is riddled with sex crazed teenagers, we can't have sex and if you do and get prego, you're doomed. There needs to be a way that we can get this done. We can't expect teens to not have sex. Its gonna happen. By teaching them safety, we are letting them make informed decisions about their lives. If they want to risk it, then its their responsibility to take care of the child.

[Jaegermeister]

I think we should still teach abstinence first, but safe sex as well. This is somewhat mean but oh well. Oh no, you're 15 and got pregnant? TOUGH SHIT. You should have known that getting pregnant was a consequence of having sex, and yet you did it anyways. Now, because you did something, and are having to deal with consequences of this path of action that you chose to embark on, you want to take the easy way out and abort the child? NO! NO NO NO NO NO! You are not going to harm the life of an innocent because you acted like a moron!



Now, that having been said, yes, I do think abortion always needs to be around AS A LAST RESORT (for example, in case of rape or incest), but giving it to every teenager who have one is asinine. Oh holy lord, I'm getting old, because here comes a "you young people" speech. Alright you all, you want to have sex, but did you ever think that YOU ARE NOT READY FOR SEX!? Hell, I'm more than 5 years older than about half the people on this site, and I know I'm STILL not ready for sex. Did you ever think that the government implemented an 18 year old legal age of consent law? Just because you want to act so grown up and do the grown up things and have sex, you have a lot to learn before you are able to even comprehend the ramifications of what sexual intercourse means. There is a reason you are MINORS until you are 18. There are some things that require to maturity and a sense of responsibility in order to properly handle them, and sex is one of those. So yes, I think sex ed still needs to teach abstinence first. I don't understand exactly where this whole fad of having sex as young as possible came from, though I plan on finding out. But, in 2004, most young people are not mature enough to really handle sex. And I think that offering free and open abortions to every teenager who acts in accordance with their hormones is not only accepting immature behavior, but promoting it. I think young people need to stop looking it as their RIGHT (or something) to have sex, and start looking at it as "Am I ready to bring a child into this world?", because that's the risk you are taking EVERY SINGLE TIME you have sex.



**End angry old fart rant**



TJ

[wagon_wheel]

*screams* I don't get how kids cannot know to use a condom everytime they have sex! Its everywhere today! Telling kids to use condoms, birth control, about STDS or whatever. I can see maybe like 11 or 12 years olds not being sure but 14 years or 15 year olds I don't think theres should be any excuse for not using a condom or some kind of protection. I exspecially hate when kids have babies/abortions/miscarriages or whatever and then keep on having unprotective sex....lets still blame lack of education....ummm...no. Even in school in the programs that teach abstitence you still learn about condoms and that stuff...not as much but you learn the common sence you need....like wear one so you don't get pregnant...I think were all too quick to blame the poor education. Yes it is somewhat to blame since it seems like a lot of kids are not picking up comon sence that is thrown at them throughout there young lifes from the media, magizines, school, etc.......like using a condom...but then again we make it seem like its all "poor" educations fault...and its NOT.

Sorry this is WAY off topic...but thats kinda who the whole thread seems to be going...so I guess I'll help out?? lol.

[pynkgodde55]

Well, lets see. When I was younger and the sex ed subject was brought up, here's my experience. Jen, take this letter home so your parents can see if they want to opt you out of sex ed. Guess what, i was opted out. Never learned a thing in school. A lot of my friends didn't either. You know what heppened? my best friend got prego at the rip age of 16. Dropped out of school, works at Wal Mart. Has a husband, two kids and hates her life. My other friend, at 17 got prego. she had twins. That's the last I heard of her. she did keep them but didn't marry. Me, I got lucky. I know what its like to raise children at a young age. We need to teach mandatory sex ed in schools. We can't rely on the parents anymore. They aren't doing their job.

[archers_angel]

Jaegermeister, I like your views! I seem to agree with all of them (even, funnily enough, the one about how women aren't able to make decisions for themselves!)



I'm a Catholic, and anti-abortion, but being Catholic has very little bearing on my views on abortion.

What affects my views on abortion is having seen what it can do to people- seeing girls use it as a method of contraception, but then regretting for ever that the killed their own baby. The moment you hold your own child in your arms, they will become the most precioud ting in the world to you, and you would move heaven and earth to protect them, even if they were unwanted until 5mins ago, I assure you.



I remember being told a story at school, which to me sums up why we shouldnt have abortions.



There was a mother who had tuberculosis, and a father who had syphilis.

Their first child had tuberculosis

Their second was born deaf and dumb

Their their child died

Their fourth child had tuberculosis too

Their fifth child was beethoven.



Personally, I could never kill what I had made. At the end of the day, if your "mature" enough to have sex, your "mature" enough to handle the responsibility. When you decide to ahve sex, your aware of the risks, and you have to deal with it. Its your fault, and your stupidity, not your babys.

[SirPostAlot]

[SirPostAlot]

Originally posted by pynkgodde55@Nov 16 2004, 10:50 AM

Well, lets see. When I was younger and the sex ed subject was brought up, here's my experience. Jen, take this letter home so your parents can see if they want to opt you out of sex ed. Guess what, i was opted out. Never learned a thing in school. A lot of my friends didn't either. You know what heppened? my best friend got prego at the rip age of 16. Dropped out of school, works at Wal Mart. Has a husband, two kids and hates her life. My other friend, at 17 got prego. she had twins. That's the last I heard of her. she did keep them but didn't marry. Me, I got lucky. I know what its like to raise children at a young age. We need to teach mandatory sex ed in schools. We can't rely on the parents anymore. They aren't doing their job.

Unfortunatly these things happened to your friends but if they would have had an abortion then they could have properally learned about sex ed. and realized what they were doing wrong to prevent the baby.



Abortion is not a complete answer. Yes you may be depressed or w/e a tad afterward but it is sure alot better then regreting the baby for years to come.



~Jeff~

[A! Elbereth]

Originally posted by Nympheas@Nov 15 2004, 01:43 PM

Surely if you ban abortion the suicide rate is going to go up?? Especially among teens, who are ashamed about what they have done/afraid of others' reactions or are just scared they can't handle it.

Um... realistically any sane woman has complete control over whether she wants to live or die. There is no fault on the illegalization of abortion over the fact that she threw out her own life because she couldn't throw out her child's.

[Jaegermeister]

Originally posted by ~*~AiM_uSeR~*~+Nov 16 2004, 03:58 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (~*~AiM_uSeR~*~ @ Nov 16 2004, 03:58 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'I feel at age 15 that sex really is about expierementing and having fun[/b]

That's what you THINK it is. Sex is never about 'expirementing and having fun.' If you get to the bare bones of it, sex is all about PROCREATION. There can be fun involved, but it needs to be taught that sex is not something to be toyed with. It's about procreating, and if you don't want to be procreating, you shouldn't be having sex. There are plenty of other ways of getting sexual pleasure that do not involve vaginal intercourse. Learn some of those.

Originally posted by ~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 16 2004, 03:58 PM

But i mean at age 15 you don't think of the conseqences you just realize it to late

WHY DO YOU THINK I'M SAYING 15 YEAR OLDS SHOULDN'T BE HAVING SEX!?!?!?! You're exactly right. They don't think of the consequences, or if they do they think of it after the fact. Which is why I don't believe 99.9% of 15 year olds shouldn't be having sex. They are not mature enough yet.

<!--QuoteBegin-~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 16 2004, 03:58 PM

If they have an abortion they will HOPEFULLY learn from their mistakes and take better precautions.[/quote]

No, they won't learn from their mistakes. They'll not only escape any consequences from their actions, it's like handing them a cookie and saying "Good job." If you had sex and got pregnant, and you were 15, you wouldn't be thinking "That was something bad that happened, and I should never do that again." You'll be thinking "Wow, I really dodged the bullet on that one. I wonder if I can get away with it again?" Teenagers are always rebelling against shit, and if you reward them for their rebellion (which is what I think teen abortion is essentially), they're gonna take it farther.



TJ

[archers_angel]

Jeff, I really am shocked that you seem so heartless about the whole issue, and theres a few points id like to make about what you said.

Yes you may be depressed or w/e a tad afterward but it is sure alot better then regreting the baby for years to come.

You make it sound like depression is nothing?!!! Go into the depression forum for just one minute- depression is ruining these peoples lives! I think, that as a man (hate to say it but it has to be said) you will NEVER be able to understand the bond a mother had with her child. The guilt will stay with you, and thats impossible to live with.



And as for your comment

I feel at age 15 that sex really is about expierementing and having fun

I feel physically sick to read it. Sex comes with so many responsibilities, and if you dont realise that, you're not old enough to have it. You need to understand that, no matter how many precautions you take, there can always be consequences. If you're having sex willingly, be prepared for a baby. You would be being naive and selfish otherwise.

[SirPostAlot]

Originally posted by Jaegermeister+Nov 16 2004, 09:57 PM--<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'<tr<tdQUOTE (Jaegermeister @ Nov 16 2004, 09:57 PM)</td</tr<tr<td id='QUOTE'

<!--QuoteBegin-~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 16 2004, 03:58 PM

If they have an abortion they will HOPEFULLY learn from their mistakes and take better precautions.

No, they won't learn from their mistakes. They'll not only escape any consequences from their actions, it's like handing them a cookie and saying "Good job." If you had sex and got pregnant, and you were 15, you wouldn't be thinking "That was something bad that happened, and I should never do that again." You'll be thinking "Wow, I really dodged the bullet on that one. I wonder if I can get away with it again?" Teenagers are always rebelling against shit, and if you reward them for their rebellion (which is what I think teen abortion is essentially), they're gonna take it farther.



TJ[/b][/quote]



Hun, you are generalizing. Yeah there will be teens that do this but there will ultimatly that will truly learn. Its like getting electrictuted. You'll learn not to stick your finger in a socket w/o knowing everything about it.

Getting an abortion is in no way a slip way out of having a kid. Its a way to give unknowledgeable teens and adults a second life to live and know that becuase of abortion their life can be kept on track instead of taking a complete turn.



~Jeff~

[SirPostAlot]

Originally posted by archers_angel@Nov 16 2004, 09:59 PM

Jeff, I really am shocked that you seem so heartless about the whole issue, and theres a few points id like to make about what you said.

Yes you may be depressed or w/e a tad afterward but it is sure alot better then regreting the baby for years to come.

You make it sound like depression is nothing?!!! Go into the depression forum for just one minute- depression is ruining these peoples lives! I think, that as a man (hate to say it but it has to be said) you will NEVER be able to understand the bond a mother had with her child. The guilt will stay with you, and thats impossible to live with.



And as for your comment

I feel at age 15 that sex really is about expierementing and having fun

I feel physically sick to read it. Sex comes with so many responsibilities, and if you dont realise that, you're not old enough to have it. You need to understand that, no matter how many precautions you take, there can always be consequences. If you're having sex willingly, be prepared for a baby. You would be being naive and selfish otherwise.

Im sorry that i disappointed you hun, i was stating my opinion.



Hun, i am a very depressed person - i know what depression is like. Yeah i don't really understand a bond between a mother and a child but i know the bond between me and my mother. I mean there really isn't any guilt w/ having an abortion. It should be the parents decision weither they have an abortion or not...



Well i, thank god, will never have to worry about pregnancy and having a baby. and yes sex is full of consequences and responsiblilties but you have to realize that at teenage hood is when you learn and expeirence everything. And what better way to learn from your mistakes then getting pregnant and having an abortion. I am in NO WAY suggesting everyone gets pregnant but i still feel taht if you get pregnant and you have an abortion you will learn from your mistakes. Trust me my one friend got pregnant and got an aboriton and she hadent had sex for a year because of fear of getting pregnant. But now she is again but w/ super precautions. People learn from there mistakes.



~Jeff~

[Jaegermeister]

Originally posted by ~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 16 2004, 09:41 PM

Hun, you are generalizing. Yeah there will be teens that do this but there will ultimatly that will truly learn. Its like getting electrictuted. You'll learn not to stick your finger in a socket w/o knowing everything about it.

Getting an abortion is in no way a slip way out of having a kid. Its a way to give unknowledgeable teens and adults a second life to live and know that becuase of abortion their life can be kept on track instead of taking a complete turn.

I know I'm generalizing, but I can't say "Well, Mindy Filopogus will regret it, but Sandy Vag won't, while across the country yada yada yada"



You are right. It is a lot like sticking a fork into an electrical socket. BUT, if instead of getting electrocuted you get a pleasant tickling sensation, there will be nothing holding you back from doing it again. That's exactly what I think abortions for teenagers will do. And sure, some kids will realize it for what it is, but I can practically garauntee that the majority of teenagers will view this simply as a slap on the wrists. By letting teenagers have abortions at will, they aren't living with the consequences. Keeping with the electrocution metaphor: You're not going to be any less dead because you didn't know that you'd get electrocuted, so why should it be any different for abortion. You won't be any less pregnant just because you didn't THINK you would get pregnant. I say didn't think because almost every teenager knows where babies come from. If you kill a man, even accidentally, you are still subject to the law and consequences for that, and there's no way out of it. I don't see any logical reason why for the most part children should be able to escape the consequences of their actions in this sphere of human activity. Especially, ESPECIALLY when they ALREADY KNOW what the potential consequences are. Maybe in a society where abortion is NOT an option then children will start thinking more about the consequenses BEFORE they decide to have sex.

Originally posted by ~*~AiM_uSeR~*~@Nov 16 2004, 09:48 PM

Trust me my one friend got pregnant and got an aboriton and she hadent had sex for a year because of fear of getting pregnant. But now she is again but w/ super precautions. People learn from there mistakes.

I'm sorry Jeff, but your friend illustrates my point perfectly. If she really had learned from her mistakes, she wouldn't be having sex. Period. End of story. Do not even try to tell me that someone has learned ANYTHING if they go back to the actions that got them in trouble in the first place. Ok, maybe she learned SOMEthing, but apparently not the right things if she's having sex again. Oh good, she's being cautious and using various preventative measures. Until that exception to the rule happens. Then what does she do? Does she get another? Teaching about contraceptives needs to be taught first and foremost that if you have sex, THERE IS NO 100% GARAUNTEE THAT PREGNANCY WILL NOT BE CAUSED. Nothing can garauntee that. Not even abstinence really, because hell, even the Virgin Mary got pregnant without having sex Ok, unless the Holy Spirit happens to impregnate you by divine intervention, I think pregnancy won't be a problem if you're abstinent.



I just started going out with a girl about a week ago. I've already sat her down and told her that we won't be having sex for a while. A good long while. If/When we do start having sex, I know I'll be taking a risk. A risk that I could father a child. Because I know I have the financial options availible to me, because realistically, by the time the child is born I will have almost finished college and be ready to enter the working world, because a good friend of mine is already a GREAT father of a very precious 3 year old, and because I know that I would be able to love that child as my offspring, I will be willing to take that risk. I will be smart, I will use protection, but if that all fails, then I'm just going to have to suck it up and deal with it, because I'm the one who made the "mistake", and I need to be mature and deal with the consequences.



TJ



PS I think I should reitterate that I FAVOR ABORTIONS for "special circumstances": rape, incest, severe health risks to the mother and the child, ect. But, I think other than that it shouldn't be given out freely to anyone who wants one. Even in rape I would consel the mother to be (if I was a friend of hers) to keep the baby if she thought she could bear it. And rape for me too is a very touchy subject. I don't like how a woman can cry rape whenever she wants and brand any man as a sex offender. I happen to have a male friend who was raped, and he was pretty much laughed at when he tried to do anything about it.