Doing Away With The Law

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Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Wed May 18, 2005 10:58 pm

Why does Christian theolgy state that the Law has been "fulfilled" and that things like keeping kosher need not be observed anymore, when Jesus said things like:


Matthew 5:17-18 said:

17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18. For verily I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all is fulfilled.



Luke 16.17 said:

17. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.




And isn't the Messiah supposed to bring peace? And isn't Jesus about love?


Matthew 10.34-35 said:

34. Think not that I come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Thu May 19, 2005 6:36 pm

I looked up these verses, and have u actually read further before and after those verses? you need to read the whole thing to understnad what he is saying


Why does Christian theolgy state that the Law has been "fulfilled" and that things like keeping kosher need not be observed anymore, when Jesus said things like:



Matthew 5:17-18 said:

17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18. For verily I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all is fulfilled.


Verse 17= He was prophesized for centuries, so he came to 'fufill' those propheises

Verse 18= Well, things change with every new generation, and society has changed, but i can't speak for whoever did that, but u have to understand Hebrew Sripture and history...its too much detail to put in this one little post.


Luke 16.17 said:

17. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail





And isn't the Messiah supposed to bring peace? And isn't Jesus about love?


I think u meant to put this under the last bible quote :D


Matthew 10.34-35 said:

34. Think not that I come to send peace on earth. I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.






He is all about love, he IS love....as you read furthor in teh following verses you see that we are supposed to love him more then anyone else.



Matthew 10:39: If You cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will find it'
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Fri May 20, 2005 12:04 am

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Jaegermeister » Fri May 20, 2005 2:59 am

Here's my take on it:



Matthew 5:17-18: Whereas people thought that Jesus was coming to be a conqueror or an emporer, he was neither. I think that that verse was more to dispel the myth that he was coming to lay down new rules. Now, the part that I think would let the law be changed is that he says "till all be fulfilled." All of what? When looking at the previous (rules in the sense of sacrifices and things like that) verse, what is he fulfilling? The law and the prophets. In fulfilling the law and the prophets, he renders them null and void. By his death and resurection, all has been fulfilled, and so now the prophicies are no longer valid, as he has fulfilled them. Also with the law. He has fulfilled the law, because before it was in following the law that you are saved. Now, it's belief in Jesus that gets you saved, not the law. So following the law is no longer required.



I do have thoughts on the other ones, but I'm too tired to get into them now. I'll write more tomorrow.



tJ



PS I'm certainly no theologian, so these are pretty much all personal interpretations here.
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Fri May 20, 2005 6:40 am

Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by turtbub » Sat May 21, 2005 9:34 pm

I think I'll do a team effort with tJ here. Of course if he thinks my reply sucks, he can write his own haha and we'll cancel the team effort.



But I agree with what he said about the prophet/law verses and I'll pick up with the God being about love and peace verse.



Yes, Jesus was certainly sent in a form of love and peace and goodness and caring. He is the embodiement of perfection, so obviously He is full of love and peace and goodness.



What I think that verse is saying, though, is that Jesus also came without fear to make a commotion. In simple terms, He wasn't afraid of a few Pharisees getting their undies in a bundle (haha sorry for the pitiful symbolism but it gets the point across) over what He had to say. And yes, families were going to be split over Jesus. Some would believe and follow Him while other family members weren't. Thus the brother vs. father, daughter vs. mother talk.



Again, just my personal opinions, but I hope they helped a bit.



:hug: Hannah
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius



Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."



"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa



"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill



There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Jaegermeister » Sat May 21, 2005 9:41 pm

Nope Hannah, I concur 100%. He didn't set out to change the law.... the law got changed as a by-product of his presence.



tJ
"What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?" --OSB



"Be who you are and be that well" --St Francis de Sales.



Suaviter et fortiter



Bunches of love Xena.

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Fri May 27, 2005 2:55 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Fri May 27, 2005 2:57 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by turtbub » Fri May 27, 2005 4:08 pm

The Law was very corrupted. The Pharisees were distorting it for their own purposes. For example they were using the temple as a marketplace. Hence Jesus destroyed the marketplace.



And, well I can't think of any other examples at the moment, but I'll come back with some exact verses.



Hope that helped a bit.
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius



Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."



"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa



"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill



There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Fri May 27, 2005 4:49 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by turtbub » Fri May 27, 2005 9:32 pm

Good question. (By the way, thank you for putting these questions out there. It's good to think about these thigns. :))



I would say that it is because after Jesus came and died, the law NEEDED to be changed because a new order had been instated. There was no more need for sacrifices, etc, and the Old Testament laws were for the most part unneccessary.



So Jesus died and paid for the sins and the laws had to be changed, because the way to salvation had been changed.



Does that make sense?
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." Confucius



Romans 5:8 "God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."



"If you judge people, you have no time to love them." Mother Theresa



"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill



There is no revenge so complete as forgiveness.

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Sun May 29, 2005 12:52 am

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sun May 29, 2005 2:55 pm

I understand what you mean, but I don't feel that it theologically makes sense. I present to you two quotes:



Leviticus 26:44-45 (Following a list of the curses and punishments for disobeying the Law -- for sinning):

But despite all this, while they will be in the land of their enemies, I will not have been revolted by them (the Jews) nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul my covenant with them -- for I am the L-rd, their G-d. I will remember for them the covenant of the ancients, those whom I have taken out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be G-d unto them -- I am the L-rd.



What is this covenant of the ancients G-d talks about?




The Covanant was basicly. IF you give me loyalty and trust, then i will in turn offer you protection, decendents, and land. It was just a contract, there was no love btw them and God at that point.


Exodus 34:10

He said "Behold! I seal a covenant: Before your entire people I shall make distinctions such as have never been created in the entire world and among all the nations; and the entire people among whom you are will see the work of the L-rd -- which is awesome -- that I am about to do with you.



What then follows are the commandments given at Sinai: first the Ten Commandments, then the instructions for building the Tabernacle, then once it is finished, the instructions for the sacrifices, then the laws of keeping kosher, and so on.



So how is there need for a new covenant, and why do the laws that are part of the old one no longer apply, if G-d says despite sin He will not forsake Israel or the covenant?
The need was because they were not following the covanant, the broke it many times (ie. the years of isrealites wandering through the desert- symbol of a period of purification--because they kept breaking the covanant)

Tink of the city of Babylon...the most sinful place in its day!



The laws were a way of people to communicate with God, then he sent his son, and now he is the way to communicate with him, therefore no need for an sacrifices and such



make sense?
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Sun May 29, 2005 7:57 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@May 29 2005, 11:55 AM

I understand what you mean, but I don't feel that it theologically makes sense. I present to you two quotes:



Leviticus 26:44-45 (Following a list of the curses and punishments for disobeying the Law -- for sinning):

But despite all this, while they will be in the land of their enemies, I will not have been revolted by them (the Jews) nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul my covenant with them -- for I am the L-rd, their G-d. I will remember for them the covenant of the ancients, those whom I have taken out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be G-d unto them -- I am the L-rd.



What is this covenant of the ancients G-d talks about?




The Covanant was basicly. IF you give me loyalty and trust, then i will in turn offer you protection, decendents, and land. It was just a contract, there was no love btw them and God at that point.


Exodus 34:10

He said "Behold! I seal a covenant: Before your entire people I shall make distinctions such as have never been created in the entire world and among all the nations; and the entire people among whom you are will see the work of the L-rd -- which is awesome -- that I am about to do with you.



What then follows are the commandments given at Sinai: first the Ten Commandments, then the instructions for building the Tabernacle, then once it is finished, the instructions for the sacrifices, then the laws of keeping kosher, and so on.



So how is there need for a new covenant, and why do the laws that are part of the old one no longer apply, if G-d says despite sin He will not forsake Israel or the covenant?
The need was because they were not following the covanant, the broke it many times (ie. the years of isrealites wandering through the desert- symbol of a period of purification--because they kept breaking the covanant)

Tink of the city of Babylon...the most sinful place in its day!



The laws were a way of people to communicate with God, then he sent his son, and now he is the way to communicate with him, therefore no need for an sacrifices and such



make sense?

[right][/right]

[/b]


That's the exact opposite of that passage from Leviticus. The passage says that no matter how much Israel sins, G-d will remember the covenant. It's not dependent on following the law. Israel may get exiled, punished, and so forth, but the covenant still stands. I will not have been revolted by them (the Jews) nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul my covenant with them -- for I am the L-rd, their G-d.



When I asked "What is this covenant" it was rhetorical; I provided the answer in the next passage, from Exodus.



You say Jesus replaced the sacrifices. I'm saying the Bible says the covenant doesn't change. Replacing the sacrifices is a change in the covenant.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sun May 29, 2005 9:43 pm

You say Jesus replaced the sacrifices. I'm saying the Bible says the covenant doesn't change. Replacing the sacrifices is a change in the covenant.
Well did it? They stayed loyal, God gave them commandments, they followed them, he gave them protection, decendents and land....Jesus is like the covanant, renewed and improved.

After Jesus, they were loyal to him, and he is God...so no change



This is just how i see it, maybe im not making a lot of sense, its late.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Sun May 29, 2005 10:56 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@May 29 2005, 06:43 PM

You say Jesus replaced the sacrifices. I'm saying the Bible says the covenant doesn't change. Replacing the sacrifices is a change in the covenant.
Well did it? They stayed loyal, God gave them commandments, they followed them, he gave them protection, decendents and land....Jesus is like the covanant, renewed and improved.

After Jesus, they were loyal to him, and he is God...so no change



This is just how i see it, maybe im not making a lot of sense, its late.

[right][/right]

[/b]


That's a big change. Going from hundreds of commandments to only the ten that Christians follow? I'd call that a change.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sun May 29, 2005 11:33 pm

That's a big change. Going from hundreds of commandments to only the ten that Christians follow? I'd call that a change.

[right][/right]

Its not that hte other laws arn't followed or recognized, its just that he first ten are the most important, being that they were in esscence the first 10.

Example=Like in the bible, its a law that incest is wrong....Christianity also believes the same thing.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by !XogFog » Mon May 30, 2005 12:33 am

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@May 29 2005, 08:33 PM

That's a big change. Going from hundreds of commandments to only the ten that Christians follow? I'd call that a change.

[right][/right]

Its not that hte other laws arn't followed or recognized, its just that he first ten are the most important, being that they were in esscence the first 10.

Example=Like in the bible, its a law that incest is wrong....Christianity also believes the same thing.

[right][/right]

[/b]


Oh, so Christians don't eat pork? Christians fast on Yom Kippur? That's news to me.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Mon May 30, 2005 7:43 am

Originally posted by !XogFog+May 29 2005, 11:33 PM--
[/right]

[/b]
Its not that hte other laws arn't followed or recognized, its just that he first ten are the most important, being that they were in esscence the first 10.

Example=Like in the bible, its a law that incest is wrong....Christianity also believes the same thing.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Oh, so Christians don't eat pork? Christians fast on Yom Kippur? That's news to me.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

I said followed OR recognized, like you know its there, but you don't follow it.

Perhaps pork wasn't the healthiest thing back then?

Look, I dont have all the answers, so why dont u ask the him eh?
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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