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Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:35 pm
by !XogFog

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:20 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Originally posted by !XogFog+Jun 5 2005, 06:35 PM--
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No! When new things are added the old one doesn't change, especially not that fundamentally. The entire Mount Sinai incident may as well have not happened according to Jesus. And if you look at every single example I gave you, the old covenant remained unchanged after the creation of the new one.

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Well, the covanant was only with the Isrealites, the Jews.

Yes Jesus was born into a Jewish family, but many times in the bible you see him denounce Jewish practices and teachings.

The new covanant regarded everyone, not just the Jews.

Jesus was sent to save us all.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 11:49 pm
by !XogFog
Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Jun 5 2005, 08:20 PM--
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No! When new things are added the old one doesn't change, especially not that fundamentally. The entire Mount Sinai incident may as well have not happened according to Jesus. And if you look at every single example I gave you, the old covenant remained unchanged after the creation of the new one.

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Well, the covanant was only with the Isrealites, the Jews.

Yes Jesus was born into a Jewish family, but many times in the bible you see him denounce Jewish practices and teachings.

The new covanant regarded everyone, not just the Jews.

Jesus was sent to save us all.

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Your point would make sense if Jesus only claimed to expand the covenant to everyone. It would still be a stretch, but would make more sense, and I do know people like that on other forums. However, you are saying that he expanded it to all AND changed the terms of it. That doesn't work.



Oh, and go read this responsa. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/responsa/r0006.php

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:49 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Originally posted by !XogFog+Jun 5 2005, 10:49 PM--
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No! When new things are added the old one doesn't change, especially not that fundamentally. The entire Mount Sinai incident may as well have not happened according to Jesus. And if you look at every single example I gave you, the old covenant remained unchanged after the creation of the new one.

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Well, the covanant was only with the Isrealites, the Jews.

Yes Jesus was born into a Jewish family, but many times in the bible you see him denounce Jewish practices and teachings.

The new covanant regarded everyone, not just the Jews.

Jesus was sent to save us all.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Your point would make sense if Jesus only claimed to expand the covenant to everyone. It would still be a stretch, but would make more sense, and I do know people like that on other forums. However, you are saying that he expanded it to all AND changed the terms of it. That doesn't work.



Oh, and go read this responsa. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/responsa/r0006.php

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Although I do believe the verse up before where it said he is making a new covanant, because the others have broken it.

Expanding does not require change to what its expanding from.

But if you are saying that he never broke it, then who is to say that contract is not in place?

They spent more years in the desert then they should have because they kept breaking the covanant, which in turn is why everyone who was born in Egpyt did not make it to the promised land, except for Joshua and Caleb, who led their conquest into Caanan.

What I'm trying to explain is, the New Covanant that God had made through Jesus's death, is one with everyone. God sent his son to save us, he sent him so we will be able to be with him the when jugdement day comes. The original Covanant is with the Isrealites, now, did he promise them eternal life? life after death with him? Not that i know of.

BEcause as of now, no one is in heaven, and all those OT biblical figures are in Paradise, not heaven.

No one had the chance before Jesus came, the way i see it. The to covanants don't contradict each other.



Just a side note- It is good to ask all these questions, but too much thinking, can lead to disbelief, is that your purpose?

I'm not attacking you, im just curious.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:28 pm
by !XogFog
Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Jun 6 2005, 10:49 AM--
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No! When new things are added the old one doesn't change, especially not that fundamentally. The entire Mount Sinai incident may as well have not happened according to Jesus. And if you look at every single example I gave you, the old covenant remained unchanged after the creation of the new one.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

Well, the covanant was only with the Isrealites, the Jews.

Yes Jesus was born into a Jewish family, but many times in the bible you see him denounce Jewish practices and teachings.

The new covanant regarded everyone, not just the Jews.

Jesus was sent to save us all.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Your point would make sense if Jesus only claimed to expand the covenant to everyone. It would still be a stretch, but would make more sense, and I do know people like that on other forums. However, you are saying that he expanded it to all AND changed the terms of it. That doesn't work.



Oh, and go read this responsa. http://www.jewsforjudaism.com/web/responsa/r0006.php

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No one had the chance before Jesus came, the way i see it. The to covanants don't contradict each other.



Just a side note- It is good to ask all these questions, but too much thinking, can lead to disbelief, is that your purpose?

I'm not attacking you, im just curious.

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They do contradict each other in that Christian theology says not to keep kosher, not to observe the holidays of Passover, Shavuot, and Succot, and Paul is very much against circumcision, a fundamental part of the original covenant. So I do feel that's a contradiction.



Do you mean am I asking these questions to make you no longer a believing Christian? I'm asking these questions for a few reasons.

1. I want to understand your theology and understand the precise point at which I disagree with it.

2. I want you to understand the Jewish theology and see that it makes complete logical, religious, and theological sense for Jews not to believe in Jesus.



If as a consequence of this discussion anyone goes farther than just understanding my side and comes all the way over to agreeing with me, and no longer believing in Christian doctrine, I don't see that as a bad thing, but no, it's not my purpose.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:54 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Originally posted by !XogFog@Jun 6 2005, 02:28 PM

They do contradict each other in that Christian theology says not to keep kosher, not to observe the holidays of Passover, Shavuot, and Succot, and Paul is very much against circumcision, a fundamental part of the original covenant. So I do feel that's a contradiction.



Do you mean am I asking these questions to make you no longer a believing Christian? I'm asking these questions for a few reasons.

1. I want to understand your theology and understand the precise point at which I disagree with it.

2. I want you to understand the Jewish theology and see that it makes complete logical, religious, and theological sense for Jews not to believe in Jesus.



If as a consequence of this discussion anyone goes farther than just understanding my side and comes all the way over to agreeing with me, and no longer believing in Christian doctrine, I don't see that as a bad thing, but no, it's not my purpose.

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In response to the 2nd point, that is why Judiasm and Christianity are 2 very distinct religions, for the obvious reasons that I and other people have said in this discussions.

They only thing is it all traces their origins to Abraham, which is the only thing that relates Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

The big rift is the how Jesus came into it, and that is what your asking right?



I think I may be repatative in saying this, but Christianity is based on what Jesus taught, we acknoledge the prophets and Abraham and the old testement and the purpose of it is, but since Jesus denounces the jewish traditions, therefore we don't follow them.

The bases of Christianity is Jesus, are we excluding God? no

Jesus is God.



Let me recommend a book for you.

It's Called= "Case for Christ" written by Lee Stobel

It is a guy would investiagted in depth the objections to Christianity, and he is not one-sided either.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:11 pm
by !XogFog
Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Jun 6 2005, 01:54 PM--
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I think I may be repatative in saying this, but Christianity is based on what Jesus taught, we acknoledge the prophets and Abraham and the old testement and the purpose of it is, but since Jesus denounces the jewish traditions, therefore we don't follow them.

The bases of Christianity is Jesus, are we excluding God? no

Jesus is God.

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So if you reject the Jewish traditions, then why is the Old Testament part of your Bible? I guess I'm saying Christianity would make more sense if it were a totally seperate religion. However, it makes the claim that it is the successor to Judaism, and that's where I feel it runs into trouble.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:11 am
by Rose'nShannenRox

I think I may be repatative in saying this, but Christianity is based on what Jesus taught, we acknoledge the prophets and Abraham and the old testement and the purpose of it is, but since Jesus denounces the jewish traditions, therefore we don't follow them.

The bases of Christianity is Jesus, are we excluding God? no

Jesus is God.

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So if you reject the Jewish traditions, then why is the Old Testament part of your Bible? I guess I'm saying Christianity would make more sense if it were a totally seperate religion. However, it makes the claim that it is the successor to Judaism, and that's where I feel it runs into trouble.

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Well, our beginings of God come from them, from Adam and eve all the way up to david and the prophets., and a lot of it is Hebrew history, which is the history of God revealing himself to us, then leading up to the comming of his son. So you really can't seperate into 2 different religions, on a christian view point.



Perhaps it would help if someone who was jewish would respond?



Then you have to think of all the sects of Christianity, I am personally a non-denominational Christian.

I'm not done, but it started thundering and i have to get off line

I will finish this 2morrow.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:26 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Originally posted by !XogFog@Jun 6 2005, 04:11 PM

I think I may be repatative in saying this, but Christianity is based on what Jesus taught, we acknoledge the prophets and Abraham and the old testement and the purpose of it is, but since Jesus denounces the jewish traditions, therefore we don't follow them.

The bases of Christianity is Jesus, are we excluding God? no

Jesus is God.

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So if you reject the Jewish traditions, then why is the Old Testament part of your Bible? I guess I'm saying Christianity would make more sense if it were a totally seperate religion. However, it makes the claim that it is the successor to Judaism, and that's where I feel it runs into trouble.

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Well, our beginings of God come from them, from Adam and eve all the way up to david and the prophets., and a lot of it is Hebrew history (it is not just jewish tradtions, you may read them practice, but its not a part of the OT, as far as I know leviticus is the book that has all the rules) , which is the history of God revealing himself to us, then leading up to the comming of his son. So you really can't seperate into 2 different religions, on a christian view point.



Perhaps it would help if someone who was jewish would respond?



Then you have to think of all the sects of Christianity, I am personally a non-denominational Christian.

I'm not done, but it started thundering and i have to get off line

I will finish this 2morrow.

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You see, the things you are talking about is why there are different denominations of Christianity. i grew up in the the Methodist church, who have different views of Christ and mary that differ from the bible...which is partly why im just non-denomnational now.

Point is, your questions are quite valid, but if you research other denominations im sure you will find some viewpoint on what your saying. May not be right or wrong...but its a start

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:55 pm
by !XogFog

I think I may be repatative in saying this, but Christianity is based on what Jesus taught, we acknoledge the prophets and Abraham and the old testement and the purpose of it is, but since Jesus denounces the jewish traditions, therefore we don't follow them.

The bases of Christianity is Jesus, are we excluding God? no

Jesus is God.

[right][/right]


So if you reject the Jewish traditions, then why is the Old Testament part of your Bible? I guess I'm saying Christianity would make more sense if it were a totally seperate religion. However, it makes the claim that it is the successor to Judaism, and that's where I feel it runs into trouble.

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Perhaps it would help if someone who was jewish would respond?



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Wait, what perspective do you think I'm coming from?

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:29 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Wait, what perspective do you think I'm coming from?

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I dont know, thats what I'm asking.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:32 pm
by !XogFog
Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@Jun 7 2005, 12:29 PM

Wait, what perspective do you think I'm coming from?

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I dont know, thats what I'm asking.

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I'm studying for an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, and as such all the learning I've done has been from a Jewish perspective. Now, I'm no Rabbi, but I feel I've presented this in a way consistent with the Jewish outlook, sometimes even quoting from organizations devoted to answering questions like this, like Chabad's Ask Moses, and the group Jews for Judaism.

Re: Doing Away With The Law

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:42 pm
by Rose'nShannenRox
Originally posted by !XogFog+Jun 7 2005, 07:32 PM--
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I dont know, thats what I'm asking.

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I'm studying for an Orthodox conversion to Judaism, and as such all the learning I've done has been from a Jewish perspective. Now, I'm no Rabbi, but I feel I've presented this in a way consistent with the Jewish outlook, sometimes even quoting from organizations devoted to answering questions like this, like Chabad's Ask Moses, and the group Jews for Judaism.

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Ok, I see

Althought what im saying is Christianty is not whole one big belief, the basics mostly are the only thing in common. I was reccomending looking at other denominations of it because in their doctrines they may have an answer to your questions.

I dont know about you, but it seems were going in circles here.