Something About This Doesnt Fit

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Rodeo
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Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rodeo » Mon May 23, 2005 12:18 pm

God is supposedly all powerful and all knowing. He is supposedly a being far beyond the imaginations of any human. Far superior in every aspect, so much so that our minds cannot even begin to concieve His glory. And we praise him in our songs. We write catchy tunes and reverent ballads and dedicate them to God. We all get together once a week to hang out in a pretty building and then proceed to tell GOD how wonderful and awesome He is.



I might be a little out of place here...but I'm smelling something fishy about this. Why would a being that is beyond human emotion and limitation create an entire race of inferior beings whose sole purpose and reason for their very existance is to tell God how much better He is than them?



I'm not claiming anything. I'm not saying He doesnt deserve our worship. I'm not saying He is not worthy of it. No no no, if HE exists, then He is beyond worthy of praise. But if HE exists, then HE is so far beyond us that HE would not NEED to be told it! IF GOD is truly the apotheosis that we claim HIM to be, then HE would have no need for a bunch of dirty barely sentient fickle ants to tell HIM that HE is so good. HE's God. He already knows that.



I'm not protesting worship...I dont know what I'm protesting...I guess I'm just saying that I cannot accept this belief the way it has been taught to me. I'm not renouncing the Christian faith, I'm not saying there is no God.

...

I believe...something...I just dont know what that is anymore...
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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by 5a5 » Mon May 23, 2005 4:25 pm

i think the idea of religion was created by humans for humans, so we can explain what's unexplainable if that makes sense, i dont know if there is god or not no one does, maybe believing in something like that gives people comfort or maybe there is god, i dont know, but yea i see what u're saying, i'm totally opposed to the whole idea of a church, putting pretty pictures on walls and worshiping statues is beyond me
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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Toy Soldier » Mon May 23, 2005 5:21 pm

Because we are in a group of people who have similar beliefs to us; because it gives some people comfort and that somebody is listening and is there with us; to give thanks to Him and ask for forgiveness for our sins. It also says somewhere in the Old Testament about worshipping G-d, but I can't remember the reasons why-probably because as humans we are'nt worthy?Also, worship brings some people closer to G-d, or they feel closer to G-d. Theres also different types of worship. I go to a Methodist Church with the Guides and the service is very charasmatic and I feel the spirit sometimes of G-d or of a higher being moving through me, whioch is the whole point of charasmatic services.



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Mon May 23, 2005 6:23 pm

Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by stoplooking » Mon May 23, 2005 10:29 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@May 23 2005, 03:23 PM

Well, think of it as a barbie, you press a button and it says 'I love you'...do you feel anything? Do you think the barbie means it? OF Course not, she is programmed to do it, she doesnt feel anything when she says it because she is controlled by the chip in her.

Whereas God gave us the choice, be cause true love comes from choice, you can sincerily say that you can love because you have the choice. The consqence of that is the choice to hate...but thats the chance he chose to take because he loved us so much, he wants a relationship with us so much!

[right][/right]



Thats a question I've been trying to answer for a long time and it still doesn't make since. I understand your barbie doll example, but it still doesn't make since. To me it is kind of like having a child. When you deside to have a child you make the choice to create a being with its own free will that can make its own choices. Now when this child grows up, it is able to think and do whatever it wants and you may not always aprove of whatever it is doing but that doesn't make you love your child any less. Parents who have children who grow up and hate them and want nothing to do with them still love their children and would wish nothing but good things for them. Yet when we put God in the parents roll, all of the sudden if we use our gift of free will to think differently or not agree with how he wants our life to play out, we go to hell? I dunno. Its just something thats never made much since to me and led to the downfall of my faith. Well.. that and a number of other things but thats not what we are talking about here.

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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by FiZzBaW » Tue May 24, 2005 12:36 am

Friend,



It dosen't seem like your questions have actually been addressed yet, in this thread... though all of the posts have valid points.


Why would a being that is beyond human emotion and limitation create an entire race of inferior beings whose sole purpose and reason for their very existance is to tell God how much better He is than them?


Our purpose and reason for existance is not to tell God how much better he is than us, We are created in God's image and Worship him of free will, as thanksgiving for all of the Gifts he has given us.



Our purpose is to make a difference in our world, to use the talents and gifts that God has given us, for the betterment of society and others. At least thats how I see it.



I mean sure we are inferior to God, and we don't fully understand what God is, but we can gather from historically sound evidence from the OT and Jesus, that he loves us, and he has given us free will. But our sole purpose is not to worship him.


I guess I'm just saying that I cannot accept this belief the way it has been taught to me.


In response to the above, I have been in your situation as well.... my High School career... Which ended tonight I might add, was at a Catholic High school, and this has effected me in a positive and negative way.... It put God in my mind often, and lead me to no longer notice the significance and how amazing it actually is to be able to pray in class and goto mass weekly with my entire school..... I lost faith, and then I finally realized how amazing it made me feel to have Faith, and I am slowly getting back to that place..... Keep in mind I have been reading books and researching my Faith, and learning the facts..... I can actually say that I believe in most of the things I have been taught in the past... but its not because I was forced to learn it, its because I have researched it on my own now.....



You will be able to define your beliefs sooner or later, it takes time and research... I wish you the best, and hope my post has addressed some of your questions.... feel free to msg me anytime



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-Jared



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by turtbub » Tue May 24, 2005 10:08 am

I agree a lot with what Jared said but I'm going to add my own spin to it.



We weren't created with the purpose of praising God. We choose to praise God for a few reasons.



1. It is what is "supposed" to be done. I don't like that answer, but it's true. For hundreds of years people have gone to churches and sang songs to God praising and thanking Him. The tradition has carried and it now seems to be what is "supposed" to be done. But only some people use that as their sole reason. There are many others.



2. We are trying to find a way to show an almighty, all powerful God how thankful we are for what He has done. And you're right, He is so far above us that nothing we can do would every be good enough to repay Him or to show Him the thanks He deserves, but this is the best that we can do. By praying to Him and singing "catchy tunes and reverent ballads" we are showing Him our thanks and love. He knows where our hearts are and so it isn't the actual SONGS that are having the affect, but our PURPOSE in doing them. It's like that saying, "It's the thought that counts." How, when a five year old gives his mom a bent out of shape mug that won't hold any coffee, but he does it with the purest of intents, his mom loves it. It's the same as our songs with God. They won't really do much for Him, but when we do it with the right heart, He still loves it.



:hug: Hope I helped a bit, dear.



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by FranklinF » Tue May 24, 2005 11:31 am

its like bowing to the Queen of England or something she KNOWS she is the queen but it is sorta out of respect you know?-MARY
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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by !XogFog » Tue May 24, 2005 5:34 pm

Prayer helps us understand the world, and that G-d is the source of all. G-d doesn't need our prayers, prayer is for our self-improvement. As to why we were created in the first place, I don't know why G-d made us. But our purpose here is to grow and improve ourselves and always strive to be like G-d.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Paris In Flames » Thu May 26, 2005 10:17 am

Man created god because at that time, they believed god to be perfection. Mankind believe that THEY are perfection. Therefore, we worship ourselves.



There is a god because we are insecure, and we feel the need to answer every mystery out there. In order to do so, we believe things that aren't necissarily logical.



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by silvertears » Tue May 31, 2005 1:49 am





The whole inferior being part, which im assuming you mean, why did he give us free will if he wanted us all to whorship him?

Well, think of it as a barbie, you press a button and it says 'I love you'...do you feel anything? Do you think the barbie means it? OF Course not, she is programmed to do it, she doesnt feel anything when she says it because she is controlled by the chip in her.

Whereas God gave us the choice, be cause true love comes from choice, you can sincerily say that you can love because you have the choice. The consqence of that is the choice to hate...but thats the chance he chose to take because he loved us so much, he wants a relationship with us so much!

[right][/right]

[/quote]

Thats one of the best ways ive heard it put i believe lol a barbie lol
I'm a poor wayfaring stranger

While traveling thru this world of woe

Yet there's no sickness, toil, or danger

In that bright world to which I go

I'm going there to see my Father

I'm going there no more to roam

I'm only going over Jordan

I'm only going over home



I know dark clouds will hang 'round me,

I know my way is rough and steep

Yet beauteous fields lie just before me

Where God's redeemed their virgils keep

I'm going there to see my mother

She said she'd meet me when I come

I'm only going over Jordan

I'm only going over home




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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by !XogFog » Tue May 31, 2005 2:26 am

If we were perfect, sinless, lacking free will and only doing G-d's will and praising Him, we would be angels. But G-d already has angels.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by A! Elbereth » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:15 pm

From the christian point of view:



What is the sole purpose of our creation?

To have fellowship with God, because he was 'lonely'.



Not so he could be praised. Of course He already knows how great He is, but we worship Him to tell Him that we KNOW He is so great. We worship Him because we LOVE Him. Not because we are told to... no one should praise the Lord simply because they feel obligated to. Then what would the point be?
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:13 pm

Using your parents example; Your parents punish you because they love you correct? They wan't what is best for you, and punishing a way to ensure that your child will not do that again. They are not doing it to be cruel or mean parents, they are just teaching you the right from wrong, so you can turn out to be the best you can be.
Yet when we put God in the parents roll, all of the sudden if we use our gift of free will to think differently or not agree with how he wants our life to play out, we go to hell? I dunno.

Same way with God, because he loves us, he punishes us.



Hell is not at all what people hype it up to be, its not full of fire and you arn't in the kind of pain that most people associate with Hell.

Hell is a dark place (if it was dark how can there be fire?), as described by many in the bible, and the pain they feel is the absence of God, that serperation from him is why they are in pain all the time, they are lost souls wandering, because they choose not to follow him in life, they will not follow him or feel him in death either...it is essitianly Hell.



Sorry i got a little off-topic, but since you mentioned it, I was just making sure you had the right idea of what it was.



Even though non of us are worthy(look at all the sin in this world?), he still love us. He created us. He sent his son to save us.

Now i don't know about you, but thats some real love
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by !XogFog » Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:04 am

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@Jun 4 2005, 06:13 PM

Same way with God, because he loves us, he punishes us.

[right][/right]



That sort of punishment is not effective as a behavior modifier because it comes after it's too late to change.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:38 am

Originally posted by !XogFog+Jun 5 2005, 04:04 AM--
[/right]

[/b]


That sort of punishment is not effective as a behavior modifier because it comes after it's too late to change.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

what do you mean?

are you talking specificlly of Gods punishment in Hell? or how he punishes in general?
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by !XogFog » Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Jun 5 2005, 06:38 AM--
[/right]

[/b]


That sort of punishment is not effective as a behavior modifier because it comes after it's too late to change.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

what do you mean?

are you talking specificlly of Gods punishment in Hell? or how he punishes in general?

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



I'm saying, to be a parent and teach your child through punishment, the way it works is: the child messes up, you punish them, and because of the punishment they learn that it was wrong and they become better. But with your idea of eternal damnation after death for sinning, it goes like this: the child messes up (sins), nothing happens, they keep sinning, then once they die and it's too late to change, they are finally punished to be shown what they did was wrong, but now it's too late to change their behavior and they're stuck being punished forever.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:46 pm

Originally posted by !XogFog@Jun 5 2005, 02:02 PM

I'm saying, to be a parent and teach your child through punishment, the way it works is: the child messes up, you punish them, and because of the punishment they learn that it was wrong and they become better. But with your idea of eternal damnation after death for sinning, it goes like this: the child messes up (sins), nothing happens, they keep sinning, then once they die and it's too late to change, they are finally punished to be shown what they did was wrong, but now it's too late to change their behavior and they're stuck being punished forever.

[right][/right]



God gives you tones of chances, and God can punish and test your faith in him thorough out your life too (read book of Job)

When they sin, they sepearte farther and farther from God

But God is always waiting for you to come back to him.

Everyone sins, its a fact of life, you can't get away from it...does that mean we are all going to hell? No, of course not.

God knows we are sinners, and he expects us to mess up, to trip and fall

Then get back up with his help.

i forget what verse it is but Jesus said 'Those who have faith in me as small as a mustard seed, are saved.

Making the effert to not be a sinner and stay faithful and be open to his love is what really racks up points with God.

He already knows we are sinners, but he loves us so much, and gives us so many chances in life...doesn't make any sense he would send us to Hell just because we are sinners, then who would get into heaven on the last day?
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by !XogFog » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:12 am

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Jun 7 2005, 07:46 PM--
[/right]

[/b]


God gives you tones of chances, and God can punish and test your faith in him thorough out your life too (read book of Job)

When they sin, they sepearte farther and farther from God

But God is always waiting for you to come back to him.

Everyone sins, its a fact of life, you can't get away from it...does that mean we are all going to hell? No, of course not.

God knows we are sinners, and he expects us to mess up, to trip and fall

Then get back up with his help.

i forget what verse it is but Jesus said 'Those who have faith in me as small as a mustard seed, are saved.

Making the effert to not be a sinner and stay faithful and be open to his love is what really racks up points with God.

He already knows we are sinners, but he loves us so much, and gives us so many chances in life...doesn't make any sense he would send us to Hell just because we are sinners, then who would get into heaven on the last day?

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



But why should death be the end? Why is that the final seal? Shouldn't people be able to see what they did wrong even after they die, and shouldn't they be allowed to repent even then? Why is Hell eternal?
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Something About This Doesnt Fit

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:46 pm

Originally posted by !XogFog+Jun 8 2005, 01:12 AM--
[/right]

[/b]


God gives you tones of chances, and God can punish and test your faith in him thorough out your life too (read book of Job)

When they sin, they sepearte farther and farther from God

But God is always waiting for you to come back to him.

Everyone sins, its a fact of life, you can't get away from it...does that mean we are all going to hell? No, of course not.

God knows we are sinners, and he expects us to mess up, to trip and fall

Then get back up with his help.

i forget what verse it is but Jesus said 'Those who have faith in me as small as a mustard seed, are saved.

Making the effert to not be a sinner and stay faithful and be open to his love is what really racks up points with God.

He already knows we are sinners, but he loves us so much, and gives us so many chances in life...doesn't make any sense he would send us to Hell just because we are sinners, then who would get into heaven on the last day?

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



But why should death be the end? Why is that the final seal? Shouldn't people be able to see what they did wrong even after they die, and shouldn't they be allowed to repent even then? Why is Hell eternal?

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

They do get to see whats wrong, on judgement day they do.

As of now no one is in heaven or hell yet, that doesn't happen until everyone is judged on the last day.

God keeps track of everything good and bad you do, and he is a merciful God...I dont know if he will allow people to repent even then.

Hell is eternal same way as Heaven is eternal, its where you live forever as a result of what you did in life.

Like, you can repent on your dying day and God will forgive you.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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