Proof For God? Irrelevant?

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Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:55 pm

In order to know that there is a God, does one need proof? If so, what proof is there? If not, then how come?

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by SirPostAlot » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:04 pm

To believe in god one doesn't need proof...the feeling inside their heart and soul is enough...

thats for some poeple...



personally i like logical proof...



~Jeff~

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:33 pm

Originally posted by SirPostAlot@Sep 26 2005, 07:04 PM

To believe in god one doesn't need proof...the feeling inside their heart and soul is enough...

thats for some poeple...



personally i like logical proof...



~Jeff~

[right][/right]



What, then, qualifies the argument? Does an individual innately know that God is real? If so, then how can he or she know anything about him? How can we decide that God is real? How can someone argue for his existance? Faith is not enough, because faith requires reason.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by SirPostAlot » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:05 pm

well i am not religious but my mom is very religious...



she says that you don't see god but you know he is inside you...she says that he is always there w/ her and it gives her a sence of completiton...she says that when she prays she can just hear him listening and when shes depressed, he allows her to cry on his shoulder...



its all about waht you feel inside and all about how you see a superiour being...



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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by A! Elbereth » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:50 pm

This topic is just begging for an inconclusive outcome.
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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Beautiful » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:47 pm

"The proof is in your heart" o.O
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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:45 am

Originally posted by A! Elbereth@Sep 26 2005, 08:50 PM

This topic is just begging for an inconclusive outcome.

[right][/right]





This is the philosophy forum right? And, what in philosophy do you know has a conclusive outcome?



The most simplistic topics, such as the ancient Socractic question "what is virtue?", still remain unanswered. Please don't think this is pointless, because there is only one answer to be had, and that is the "truth". All of our daily functions, economics, belief systems, and whatnot are based on philosophy. Everything has philosophy involved! That is why we do not have conclusive conversations, because the truth is based individually. Because it is individually based and not based directly on any higher multitude, each person begs the questions. That is why we have progress...because we are searching for the truth.



Although we, as a entire body involved in this topic, may not come to covenant, many individuals will learn from this discussion. Perhaps adapt different perspectives and use them to their benefit, whether fully aware or not. And, resulting will be progress of ideas; a seemingly closer step to the truth.



But, the truth is inconsistent as well, so it becomes more of a chase rather than a finding of Atlantis, per say.



Anyway, my questions are in the interests of my own understanding of God as well others and hopefully it will be taken as so.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:37 pm

Jeremiah 31:33...says the LORD. "I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

I believe we are inatly connected to God at birth...but its up to us to choose whether to strengthen it, or stomp it and let satan control your life.



As babies we are innocent see? As we should have childlike faith

Mathew 18: 1-4

1About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Which of us is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?"

2Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them. 3Then he said, "I assure you, unless you turn from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. 5And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me.

^^ tad bit OT, but theres nothign wrong wit some more scripture hehe :)
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:18 pm


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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by 309756 » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:49 pm

Right. This may be an "inconclusive" topic, but it still bears some questioning.



I think the reason that those of faith (theists) and those who do not have fiath (agnostics/atheists) disagree is a fundamental difference in paradigm. Considered from an Aristotleian perspective, for exmaple, there are certain elements of the universe that clearly point to the exitence of a creator (first cause), while there are others that argue against an involved god (Newtonian/classical physics). Now consider the following:



David Hume, a Scottish philosopher of the Enlightenment, argued that God did not exist because God would not act to light a candle, and furthermore, that the absence of a violation of the laws of nature constituted an inability on the part of a deity to intervene in the natural world. That is, to an atheist or an agnostic, the natural laws of the universe (whether they be biological, chemical, classically physically, or even quantum in nature), are supreme, while to many theists, God is outside of both space and time, making him basically SIMPLE.



that is, he is intrinsically divine, rather than proven logically.



I think that in part, what A! Elbereth's statement is true--that each side has two very clear assumptions, and that they cannot be resolved through discourse aloone. But it doesn't mean that people can't have a decent discussion on the topic.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:52 pm

Originally posted by Tree Fingers+Sep 27 2005, 08:18 PM--
[/right]

[/b]
Not to force anything on you, but do you ever question why you believe? I think it is good to do so that you have more depth in your belief. You cannot know A unless you know what A is.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

of course, i grew up in church...and i only liked it cause we went on cool retreats and trips to Six flags...it was never something to me that was special or whatnot, i had friends, and a good palce to hang out.

It got to the point where i would consider myself agnostic/atheist....i wouldnt mind when peopel would bring up GOd, but to me he was just a big guy upstairs who had a bunch of rules that made life no fun.



I met a friend, who just happend to be a pastors kid...we became extremly close (still are), we are like sisters...and through that friendship, I realize that there was more to God then just a guy with rules....he my father, he is my savior, and my comferter.

He loves me beyond imagine, and just for that reason I am worth more then what i was doing to myself and everyone around me.



He wasn't just standing in the background through all the rough things that happend to me being like 'hmmm, she will be aiight'....He was waiting for me to seek him out sincerly, let him into my heart to change me....because he doesnt want us to hurt, he wants us to be full of joy.

We are not meant to be paupers, we are children of the mighty king!



He wants us to have a relationship with him, that is what he made us for. When we seek him with all of our hearts, and are willing to die daily to ourselves and live for him...we will be truly blessed, and garenteed citizen of heaven.



Granted, we are all sinners and we will always mess up...but the amazing thing about God is he forgives all sins, if you ask him too...and then you can ask for him to guide you to not make the same mistake again.



Acts 17:27:"His purpose in all of this was that the nations should seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him--though he is not far from any one of us.



Proverbs 3:6: "Seek his will in all you do, and he will direct your paths."
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by A! Elbereth » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:49 pm

Originally posted by pandasandpenguins@Sep 27 2005, 09:49 PM

I think that in part, what A! Elbereth's statement is true--that each side has two very clear assumptions, and that they cannot be resolved through discourse aloone. But it doesn't mean that people can't have a decent discussion on the topic.

[right][/right]



Yes. You are free to ponder the meaning of life!







Let me know when you guys figure it out! :rm_frog:
Your soul.

Your body.

Your mind.


Keep it Purified.



But give me love over, love over, love over this... ~Coldplay



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Dr. Wilson:
I forgot I needed a reason to give a crap.

Dr. House: You're actually giving two craps.

Dr. Wilson: The metric system always confused me.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Anna_Banana » Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:04 am

i dont believe you need proof. simply because you dont need to see something to believe it. people have said that seeing is believing, but that is not always true. everyone has believed in something they have not seen.
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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:38 pm

Originally posted by Anna_Banana@Sep 29 2005, 06:04 AM

i dont believe you need proof. simply because you dont need to see something to believe it. people have said that seeing is believing, but that is not always true. everyone has believed in something they have not seen.

[right][/right]





Yeah, but you need reason to establish that belief.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by junglemonkey » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:31 pm

Proof is irrelevant. I just know and cannot explain why.



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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:17 pm

Originally posted by junglemonkey@Sep 29 2005, 02:31 PM

Proof is irrelevant. I just know and cannot explain why.



:)

[right][/right]





What do you mean you know? You can't know something unless you know what it is.

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by SirPostAlot » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:03 pm

hun, i am on your side about believeing why thy see...but people do believe in their hearts about their savior and the best they can say is that they know...not saying that they are ignorante but in reality they just know...



~Jeff~

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by Tree Fingers » Fri Sep 30, 2005 12:39 am

Originally posted by SirPostAlot@Sep 29 2005, 08:03 PM

hun, i am on your side about believeing why thy see...but people do believe in their hearts about their savior and the best they can say is that they know...not saying that they are ignorante but in reality they just know...



~Jeff~

[right][/right]





See, you don't understand. You cannot know something unless you know what it is. E.g., if I were to say I know obligansofs exist, and I just know they do. Then, you would ask: well, what is an obligansof? I don't know, I say, I just know it is there.



So, I think, for the sake of debate, lets define God. What is God?

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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by FranklinF » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:58 am

I have the answer If there is a room that no one goes into as it is locked and no one and no thing can get in or out with out a key how do things just appear? they dont the person with the key puts them there....



say this person puts in a tenis ball just unlocks the door really fast and throughs the ball in there, it bounces around for a while but nothing else happens, the ball does not evolve, the ball does not have children the ball just lays on the floor



yes well i stole this idea from an article that someone had posted here a very long time ago... the article gets more into it, and i dont quite remember it all



and to answer you question on who God is- He is the devine father, the creator of this world and universe and everything the eye can see, yes even man made things had to come to his mind first... -MARY
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Re: Proof For God? Irrelevant?

Post by 309756 » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:03 pm

Taken from A! Elbereth's article: did nothing ever exist.



and the answer is still unknown.

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