Morality

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Rose'nShannenRox
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Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:09 pm

Time Changer: in this movie, Professer Carlisle, is asking for endorsment from the seminary on his book 'The Changing Times', but Dr. Anderson believes that his book will have a negative lasting effect on the generations, so he takes the bible professer in the future to see where his writing will lead.



Here is the quote from Dr. Anderson that is the basis for his opposition:



"Without authority of Christ , man is left to comepare ideas, then morality becomes a matter of opinion. If we remove this authority, then we have no basis on which to command....Satan is not against good morals, he is opposed to Jesus Christ...A man can live with good morals his whole life and you and I know he will go to hell, it is Jesus Christ everyone needs and Satan knows this. Satans goals is to remove morals from Jesus name, and in doing that we fool people into thinking that you can live a good moral life and can still obtain heaven....look at our familes, they are weakening, they are falling apart, the divorce rate is up to 5% our young people are becoming more disrespectful, I believe this is a direct result of taking the authority of Jesus away from his commands.

-Dr. Anderson



In the movie, he takes that bible professor 110 years into the future (from 1890) with a time machine, to see the result of teaching only morals, and taking Jesus out of the picture.



By the end of the movie. That Bible professer said this:



"I was wrong in thinking that we can teach the teachings of the Lord, without the Lord of the teachings"



food for thought eh?

It is so sad to see how this world has become, it is so true. One can say 'Its not right to steal'...then they will reply 'says who?'...and what will you say?...



Food for though eh?

Makes sense don't it? I mean morality has become a matter of opinion, which can be debated back and forth and nothing will come from it because there is no basis.



what are your thoughts? (and please no 'God does not exist' answers)

didferent perspective huh? Yeah, got me thinking to, didn't think of it that way....but it makes sense.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by 309756 » Tue Nov 08, 2005 8:44 pm

In a way, religious and moral history in the United States has been defined by nonsectarian Christianity. Yet in another interpretation, the morals of religon have not been confined to one sect. If the world is really falling apart for lack of religion, visit a country where there is no separation of church and state - such as Saudi Arabia. :-P

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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:00 pm

Originally posted by pandasandpenguins@Nov 8 2005, 07:44 PM

In a way, religious and moral history in the United States has been defined by nonsectarian Christianity. Yet in another interpretation, the morals of religon have not been confined to one sect. If the world is really falling apart for lack of religion, visit a country where there is no separation of church and state - such as Saudi Arabia. :-P

[right][/right]

Islam and Christianity are 2 very different things. True Christianity(note i say 'True') is not voilent...and the teachings are Jesus are not harmful, how harmful can it be to teach that the Lord told us to 'love our neighbor' and baout unconditional love regardless, how harmful is it to teach taht teh Lord says 'turn the other cheek'....tell me how detremental that could be to our society.

Christianity is not a religion, its a relationship with Jesus, which i believe it is soemhing everyone needs.

I'm specifically talking about America in this post.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by Paris In Flames » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:59 pm

I think morality, while based upon religion, is still changing and a matter of opinion today.

Granted, during the middle ages, the church controlled the way of life. People actually PAID to get their sins forgiven. I mean, honestly, the church was completely and utterly corrupt, but all people wanted was the approval that THEY could get into heaven. Alas, I feel that since the church had absolute control for more than a thousand years, people and culture today were/are still greatly influenced by the morals pressed upon them by christianity and the church.



Morality does not need religion, because I feel that through our own experiences, we can judge what is right and wrong.

I certainly don't need a god telling me that killing a man or steal is wrong.



Cheers,



Jenna
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The tragedy is the ignorance behind the clean casket

On the outside, they look so good

They're walking to Wallstreet in a straightjacket...

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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Thu Nov 10, 2005 7:35 am

Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by 309756 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 5:08 pm

I agree with Jenna. Universal humanity is beyond religion.

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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:31 pm

Originally posted by pandasandpenguins@Nov 11 2005, 04:08 PM

I agree with Jenna. Universal humanity is beyond religion.

[right][/right]

so you were born knowing right from wrong? No, someone had to teach you. Everything comes from something.

IN Ancient hebrew times...the Caannaites are talked about and referenced alot...they had things like animal and human sacrifice...they were taught that that was right...are you saying that its right in that instince? If no one had told them or their neighbors that this was not right...it woudl probably be still going on today, right?

This world would probably still be animalistic if it wasnt for morals put forth by God, given to isrealites...then in through Jesus. and taught through generations.

Regardless of whether a person has grown up Christian or not...morals were taught to them that stem from the bible...because again, people started teaching only morals without Jesus attacted to them.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by 309756 » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:46 pm

Not true. Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, and Confucian cultures all teach morality without the Christian God. If morality is a cultural device (taught), then each culture's morality should be different, which contradicts your statement about how Jesus taught ALL morality.

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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:37 pm

Originally posted by pandasandpenguins@Nov 12 2005, 02:46 PM

Not true. Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, and Confucian cultures all teach morality without the Christian God. If morality is a cultural device (taught), then each culture's morality should be different, which contradicts your statement about how Jesus taught ALL morality.

[right][/right]

Jewish- same God, doesn't believe in Jesus. Quite accuratly, they saw him as a good Jewish teacher, but just didn't believe his claims of being the promised Messiah, the only peopel you truly see are against him are the 'Pharisees'.



Islam- Claim to has same God as Christians, and view Jesus and his teachings as a great prohpet (althought under Mohummad)



And as we all know, certain things can be taken and twisted into something its not. People interpret things wrongly, either to the extreme or to the lesser, and don't take it for what it plainly is.

Each cultures morality is different, Jesus teaches that everyone is the same and equal...now where do you see that moral in every country? Right, you don't.

I didn't say that everyone has copied down word for word what Jesus said in the bible and teaches it (thought its not a bad idea), I said, or what i meant to say more clearly is that their ideals of right and wrong...stem Christian belief that not everyone holds today.

Stem, meaning again, that coming from generations of everyone believing in Jesus Christ and God...that even thought its not that way today, the ideas still stand such as 'Murder is wrong'
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by !XogFog » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:16 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox+Nov 12 2005, 01:37 PM--
[/right]

[/b]
Jewish- same God, doesn't believe in Jesus. Quite accuratly, they saw him as a good Jewish teacher, but just didn't believe his claims of being the promised Messiah, the only peopel you truly see are against him are the 'Pharisees'.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Quite inaccurately, actually.



Nobody believed he was a good teacher except his disciples. Not the Sadducees, not the Pharisees, not the Essenes. None of them believed he was the Messiah, and certainly none of them believed he was G-d.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:51 pm

Originally posted by !XogFog+Nov 12 2005, 09:16 PM--
[/right]

[/b]
Jewish- same God, doesn't believe in Jesus. Quite accuratly, they saw him as a good Jewish teacher, but just didn't believe his claims of being the promised Messiah, the only peopel you truly see are against him are the 'Pharisees'.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]



Quite inaccurately, actually.



Nobody believed he was a good teacher except his disciples. Not the Sadducees, not the Pharisees, not the Essenes. None of them believed he was the Messiah, and certainly none of them believed he was G-d.

[right][/right]

[/b][/quote]

Jesus was most likely an Essene actually, as was JTB. I know that they did not see him as the promised Messiah and not God being as their view as the Promised one is a military HUMAN leader that would take them out of the opression from the Romans.

From what I have read in non-biblical historical sources and from what I was taught in school, He grew up observing Jewish Holidays, and people have recorded him as a wise Jewish teacher.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by !XogFog » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:14 pm

G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Sun Nov 13, 2005 2:31 pm

JTB= John the Baptist

who as far as my knowledge goes, grew up as an Essene. And i wasn't talking about only Jews, I was talking about jews and non jews mostly objective ones.
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by !XogFog » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:03 pm

Originally posted by Rose'nShannenRox@Nov 13 2005, 11:31 AM

JTB= John the Baptist

who as far as my knowledge goes, grew up as an Essene. And i wasn't talking about only Jews, I was talking about jews and non jews mostly objective ones.

[right][/right]



If I regard you as a great Buddhist teacher, but no Buddhists do, then it doesn't really mean much does it? Similarly, if Jews don't consider him a great teacher, then he's not really a great Jewish teacher.
G-d is not a man, that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should change His mind. (Numbers 23:19)



The fear of the L-RD is the beginning of knowledge; foolish ones scorn wisdom and discipline. (Proverbs 1:7)

The beginning of wisdom is to aquire wisdom; from your every acquisition acquire understanding. (Proverbs 4:7)



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Re: Morality

Post by 309756 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:50 pm

Objectively speaking, some people consider Jesus to have great morals - others think that they are terrible.

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Re: Morality

Post by 5a5 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:22 am

i think sice religion as an idea was created by human beings it changes according to the times we live in
Now you'll find with everything you lose

Your path clears with everything you choose



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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:07 pm

Originally posted by 5a5@Nov 16 2005, 12:22 AM

i think sice religion as an idea was created by human beings it changes according to the times we live in

[right][/right]

what are you trying to say here?
Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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Re: Morality

Post by 5a5 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:36 am

^ that since humans created religion as a idea it will change because human being change with time .. um <--- that
Now you'll find with everything you lose

Your path clears with everything you choose



Is there someway I can show you

The best is yet to come

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Re: Morality

Post by Tree Fingers » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:14 pm

I have a few topics to address.



1.) Morality is a matter of opinion.

2.) There can be no morality in the absense of religion.

3.) Morality being innate (being born with the knowledge of 'right' and 'wrong')







1.) Morality is a matter of opinion.



This is plainly false. There was a school of thought known as the Cultural Relativists who believed that morality was not universal, but instead settled in a culture and the individual. For clarity, this means that my decision or my view of what is 'right' and 'wrong', if it is different from another person, is not subject to a greater moral code. For example, the Nazi's actions were in fact moral because they believed them to be moral. And, to carry this example further, the moral worth of the Nazi's would be equivalent to the moral worth of Christians or Buddhists, or Jesus Christ himself. And, consequently, there could be no moral progress. Why? Because everyone has their own set of morals, so no one can properly say that someone else's morals are wrong because it is subjective. This is false because we know there is moral progress (i.e. women's rights, civil rights, the end of the holocaust, etc.). That is as obvious as anything. So, morality is not a matter of opinion. If someone believes what they are doing is right when it is in fact wrong, then they are mistaken.



2.) There can be no morality absent of religion.



This too is false. Morality is not defined by religion at all. Instead, religion establishes laws subject to justice. Morality is not, although it is affiliated with, justice. The Bible sets forth ethical laws that are subject to his judgment. That is not morality, it is simply laws related to justice.



Next: Ethical condemnations of religion. I'll work with Hobbes, Hume, and Kant on this explanation.

1.) Thomas Hobbes argues that morality is defined by man and that religion is incorporated (and God does exist) in order to act a governing force.

2.) David Hume argues that morality is defined by utility. He means that moral worth is defined by usefulness for a society, in that it promotes the greatest happiness. Thus, he argues, religion often times infringes upon utility (and thus morality) because it incorporates useless rituals that actually distract men from fulfilling their utility. For example, fasting, sacrificing, repeating words or sayings are all superstitions and have no moral worth. They, in themselves, harbor no usefulness for the betterment of society. Therefore, to be moral we must separate ourselves from religion.

3.) Immanuel Kant has a very interesting take on these things. Although I won't get too deeply into it, I first want to tell you that according to Kant, people like Mother Teresa are not moral. Sure, they are helping people and being nice, but that does not constitute for morality. There are four types of actions, according to Kant. The first being inconsistent with duty (killing, hurting people, betrayal, stealing, all that stuff typically seen as immoral), the second being self-interested actions (doing things to make yourself happier), the third being sympathetic actions (doing things for other people to make them happier). All three of these, the first one being obvious, do not constitute moral actions. Instead, it is the fourth action that constitutes moral worth: pure rational incentive. Let me unpack this. Kant argues that what constitutes moral worth is "intention". The intention behind actions defines the moral worth. Example concerning the four actions (so I can differentiate them better): You walk by a lake a notice that a child is drowning, so you 1.) let him drown or partake in his drowning and ultimately his death (action 1; incentive: watching him die or hating the child), 2.) realize that if you save the child, people will think you are a hero and thus you will be famous and respected (action 2; incentive: self-interest, glory), 3.) feel bad for the child or you like the child so you save him (actoin 3; incentive: sympathy or concern, emotional) or 4.) you recognize that the child is drowning, and know that you must save him (action 4; incentive: pure rationalism, this is Kant's decision).

Concerning religion with Kant, Mother Teresa is an action 2 or 3 because her incentive is either self-interested (wanting God's approval so she may go to Heaven) or it is sympathetic (wanting the children to live better, or wanting God to be in the people's lives). Thus, it would be safe to conclude that Kant believes that a society whose decisions are based on Christian ethics is not a moral society (but not necessarily immoral) because people who abide by God's laws are either self-interested or sympathetic.





3.) Morality is innate. Once again, I will address this with Hobbes, Hume, and Kant



Thomas Hobbes believes that morality is not innate, but rather immorality is. In other words, humans are more prone to make immoral decisions rather than moral decisions until covenants are made between men. Thus, morality is learned.

David Hume believes that morality is innate because humans are social animals and therefore are prone to make decisions based on the betterment for his people and society. Thus, morality is founded in the survival and betterment of our species, which is founded by evolution (Hume doesn't say anything about evolution, but if Darwin was before Hume's time, he certainly would have made this connection)

Kant believes that morality is innate...kind of. He believes that when we come into life, we are exposed to the physical world of which our 'mind' translates into reality. But, there is also an objective realm of our reality, a world of space, numbers, and the such. The more we understand that realm, although we can never truly partake in it completely, the more objective our reality will be. This struggle between understanding that realm from our reality is where we find rationalism. And, thus from rationalism comes morality.



Whew.



That's all I have to say right now.

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Re: Morality

Post by Rose'nShannenRox » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:45 am

Im a part of the fellowship of the unashamed.I have Holy Spirit power. The die has been cast.I have stepped over the line.The decision has been made. Im a disciple of His.I wont look back,let up,slow down,back away,or be still...



My face is set,my gait is fast,my goal is heaven,my road is narrow,my way is rough,my companions are few,my Guide is reliable,my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised,detoured,lured away,turned back,deluded,or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice,hesitate in the presence of the adversary,negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity,or meander in the maze of mediocrity.



I wont give up,shut up,let up,untill i have stayed up,stored up,prayed up,paid up,preached up for the cause of Christ.I am a disciple of Jesus.I must go till He comes,give till i drop,preach till all know,and work till He stops me; and when He comes for His own,He will have no problem recognizing me-my banner will be clear!



-African pastor in Zimbabwe

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